At least a quarter of the population was on streets on certain days.
That seems unlikely.
In any case, the HK situation was complicated in the way the Chinese government took extreme cautions not to appear brutal, even when protesters murdered several cops and counter-protesters, while protestors took measures to appeal to foreign audiences to further exploit that.
This dynamic doesn’t apply outside of Hong Kong, I can’t carry around a sign in chinese in hope that the US fears looking bad to China.
The Chilean protests around that time are much more applicable because the videos coming out weren’t designed to appeal to western audiences so they tend to showcase more effective tactics than “bring a $100+ dollar leafblower or have 10 people choreograph a cute routine involving traffic cones”, such as “bring a large jug of water, people need water, and you can put tear gas in it.” and “use rocks to break up and move police out of an area”
I observed the events keenly. Regarding numbers. As always, in a situation like that, police will under-report the number of protesters, while protesters will over-report the number of protesters. Journalists will try to make sense of it. Two examples:
While police estimated attendance at the march on Hong Kong Island at 270,000, the organisers claimed that 1.03 million people had attended the rally, a number unprecedently high for the city.
A protest on the following day had almost 2 million people participating according to an CHRF estimate, while the police estimated that there were 338,000 demonstrators at its peak.
The spread is rather large, 10 times difference. A survey of mobile phone operators to get their statistics likely would be able to tell how many really participated, but I’m not aware of one, and besides it’s all under Chinese control now.
Now, one of your claims sticks out - I need to ask for your source. You write:
the Chinese government took extreme cautions not to appear brutal, even when protesters murdered several cops and counter-protesters
This claim appears to be entirely false. Can you tell, where did you get the information? In retrospect, and in agreement with daily news as I recall them, according to Wikipedia:
Two died during protests and clashes,[11][12] 13 committed suicide.[13][14][15]
[12:55] Student Union appeals: All Hong Kong citizens put down what they are doing at 1pm and observe a moment of silence for Mr. Chow.
12:30 A government spokesperson said in response to media inquiries that the HKUST student fell in a car park in Tseung Kwan O on the morning of November 4 and died after undergoing surgical treatment at the hospital.
A 70-year-old cleaner outsourced by the Food and Civil Supplies Department was hit in the head by a brick opposite the Northern District Hall in Sheung Shui during lunch the day before yesterday. Police said they had arrested suspected persons involved in the case.
I can’t source the motivations of the HK police, but their taking cautions to avoid the appearance of police brutality should be evident from comparing the HK protests to the police response to BLM in America or the Chilean protests around that time.
But I specifically remember multiple pictures of HK cops engulfed in fire after getting hit directly. Maybe they all lived, but it seems more likely we wouldn’t know due to there being no reason for western media to promote them.
The cops were likely doused with ABC powder by their fellow cops, and got away with light burns (heavy clothing helps). Lee Chi-cheung seems to have been hurt badly. The protester with a stick and swimming board was saved by surgeons (the bullet missed his heart).
A side note: some HK brutality was outsourced to the “white shirts”, whose allegiance could be denied. (In HK, a black shirt meant you were a protester, while a crowd of young men in white shirts with sticks - was usually associated with triads doing a favour to the city government. Their most publicized “feat” was the mass beating at Yuen Long subway station.) Overall, Hong Kongers seem to have done their protest with “comparatively little violence” (relative to their total number).
When mass protest occurred in Chile, I was busy and missed the news. I managed to register what was happening, but no details.
An example of the cost of a very severe protest which stopped short of a war, would be the Maidan events in Ukraine. The cost was 108 civilians and 13 police killed. A big number for a protest - mostly bullet wounds - but a small number compared to what is taken by a war.
That seems unlikely.
In any case, the HK situation was complicated in the way the Chinese government took extreme cautions not to appear brutal, even when protesters murdered several cops and counter-protesters, while protestors took measures to appeal to foreign audiences to further exploit that.
This dynamic doesn’t apply outside of Hong Kong, I can’t carry around a sign in chinese in hope that the US fears looking bad to China.
The Chilean protests around that time are much more applicable because the videos coming out weren’t designed to appeal to western audiences so they tend to showcase more effective tactics than “bring a $100+ dollar leafblower or have 10 people choreograph a cute routine involving traffic cones”, such as “bring a large jug of water, people need water, and you can put tear gas in it.” and “use rocks to break up and move police out of an area”
I observed the events keenly. Regarding numbers. As always, in a situation like that, police will under-report the number of protesters, while protesters will over-report the number of protesters. Journalists will try to make sense of it. Two examples:
The spread is rather large, 10 times difference. A survey of mobile phone operators to get their statistics likely would be able to tell how many really participated, but I’m not aware of one, and besides it’s all under Chinese control now.
Now, one of your claims sticks out - I need to ask for your source. You write:
This claim appears to be entirely false. Can you tell, where did you get the information? In retrospect, and in agreement with daily news as I recall them, according to Wikipedia:
Report about death 1
Report about death 2
I can’t source the motivations of the HK police, but their taking cautions to avoid the appearance of police brutality should be evident from comparing the HK protests to the police response to BLM in America or the Chilean protests around that time.
As far as deaths on the police and counter-protesters goes, I thought the guy the protesters lit on fire died, but he’s alive, and I can’t find any record of deaths from pretty documented use of molotovs, which is very unusual.
But I specifically remember multiple pictures of HK cops engulfed in fire after getting hit directly. Maybe they all lived, but it seems more likely we wouldn’t know due to there being no reason for western media to promote them.
The cops were likely doused with ABC powder by their fellow cops, and got away with light burns (heavy clothing helps). Lee Chi-cheung seems to have been hurt badly. The protester with a stick and swimming board was saved by surgeons (the bullet missed his heart).
A side note: some HK brutality was outsourced to the “white shirts”, whose allegiance could be denied. (In HK, a black shirt meant you were a protester, while a crowd of young men in white shirts with sticks - was usually associated with triads doing a favour to the city government. Their most publicized “feat” was the mass beating at Yuen Long subway station.) Overall, Hong Kongers seem to have done their protest with “comparatively little violence” (relative to their total number).
When mass protest occurred in Chile, I was busy and missed the news. I managed to register what was happening, but no details.
An example of the cost of a very severe protest which stopped short of a war, would be the Maidan events in Ukraine. The cost was 108 civilians and 13 police killed. A big number for a protest - mostly bullet wounds - but a small number compared to what is taken by a war.