God forgives, but the bradster doesn’t
Wow, I didn’t know ideas so different could cohabitate together like that in someone’s mind.
You should try the PNW. Birkenstock-wearing, Prius driving conservative with trump stickers all over the hybrid car.
Did you just see my neighbors driveway through their ring camera?!
Next step: they’ll take the 4chan troll logic of “it’s gay to like women” seriously
Trans-inclusive radical misogyny.
My brain just fell apart reading that sentence
the heat death of bigotry
So you’re saying dude has TIRM-inal brain rot?
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Sometimes I need to see the twitter feeds of people like this, as a reminder of exactly what women mean when they talk about men being scum.
Sometimes it hurts to be generalized into a category I don’t feel I belong to and it’s tempting to push back, but knowing that people are out there spending what appears to be all of their free time being horrible online and harassing women is a good reminder that women are pretty justified in having a low opinion of men in general.
Now I can go back to pretending twitter doesn’t exist for a while again.
The easiest way to see if it’s OK is to swap out “men” with any other protected characteristic. If, having done that it suddenly becomes problematic, it was always so and they should’ve known better.
I think youre right not to engage them though. For all their talk of equality, anyone who talks like that just wants to be at the top of a new hierarchy. Remove or subjugate the men and most women (who haven’t decolonisated their minds) will just replicate the same power structures, adopting the position of patriarch without a hint of self awareness. The way forward is to help other men see the pain caused to them by the patriarchy, as its only then that we can see the pain we cause through the patriarchy, due to the rituals of disregard and empathy killing we go through as boys.
I’ll finish by saying the same thing I said to my dad, shortly after he lost his job" "yes dad, of course I’ve heard of the phrase ‘sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.’ However, you can’t always do that, especially when you’re meant to be firefighter, you doughnut.
You should reference my other comment in this thread. You’re correct that statements like “all men are trash” are unjustly prejudiced, but you’re making a false equivalence.
My point is that is that both are wrong, not that they are or are not both equally wrong. So, would you mind explaining where the equivalence is please?
I mean, I know its more of a case that some people don’t like that both of those things are wrong to do but I’m gonna need a little more than that and a misunderstanding of an informal fallacy, sorry.
In your comment, whether intended or not. It’s not a long comment. By “whatabouting” the idea of replacing men with any marginalized group, you are making a false equivalence via equivocation. By leaving out the crucial aspect of power imbalance, you minimize its role by implication. See: all lives matter in response to BLM.
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You should read my longest comment within this larger thread. Truly read the whole thing, and its child comments, before forming your opinion. I clearly and explicitly state
I am not suggesting that it’s okay to make men feel responsible for the actions of people that share only a gender with them, nothing else.
and that doing so is unjust. Nuance isn’t the same thing as taking an opposing stance. I even go into the fact that women making such blanket statements likely do not hate all men. If you feel the same way after reading my full comment and understanding it, I’m happy to have a discussion about it, but by the context of your comment, I don’t believe you understand my stance, and therefore I don’t want to engage with it further.
Again, you don’t understand what a false equivalence fallacy is. So, you should really stop attempting to use it because doing so is make you look like a fool.
Whatabouting and false equivalences aren’t the same thing. I feel like I’m witnessing the death of irony here.
No, something wrong is still wrong, even if you feel bad about historical injustices. The power imbalance does not change this and also ignores every other intersection a white person could have.
You even drew a false equivalence the BLM which is the only actual false equivalence on this chain.
See the wiki pages of the fallacies you clearly don’t understand.
God damn bougouise feminists.
God forbid a rhetorical argument fall into multiple categories. I never said whataboutism and false equivalences are the same thing. You happened to do both. Equivocation has nothing to do with setting two things as equal, it’s the use of ambiguous language to avoid the bigger picture of an issue or to avoid committing to a stance. It is another form of logical fallacy. Via equivocation (omission and vague language) you omitted key facts (social power imbalance) that makes bringing up a connected, but not equivalent, issue (replacing men are trash with any other group, which is a form of whataboutism) a false equivalence.
You can say I don’t know what I’m talking about. That doesn’t make it true. Your equivocation of your whataboutism argument led to forming a false equivalence.
All lives matter in response to BLM is both whataboutism and a false equivalence. Just because someone didn’t say “what about” or "these things are equal doesn’t make those facts untrue. There is an implied “what about all those other lives, don’t they matter?” which in itself implies that the societal inequalities BLM rose in response to are equal to the pressures felt but the rest of “all lives.”
God damn bougouise feminists.
Lol
It’s always amusing to me to watch someone like the person you’re responding to try to browbeat an argument into submission by referencing pedantic technicalities and yet be so fundamentally wrong about what those technicalities actually mean.
Although on the topic of being pedantic, I kinda miss when whataboutism was called tu quoque. Really made the logical fallacy guys at least sound eloquent.
The easiest way to see if it’s OK is to swap out “men” with any other protected characteristic. If, having done that it suddenly becomes problematic, it was always so and they should’ve known better.
No. You are making an equivalence argument that misses the reality of power dynamics and the context of like centuries of documented social oppression.
Edit: Fuck I didn’t see erin beat me to it.
No, it’s not an equivalence argument. I didn’t say they were equally wrong or the same thing. Also, nether power dynamics nor oppression make those things right.
You’re telling me that you see no problem with black people saying the same about all white people then?
Yes, I see no problem with black people saying the same about white people; because white people have a manufactured generational power gap supporting them which is designed around keeping black people poor, underrepresented, and under served in their communities.
Much the same way as how men have manufactured a generational power gap supporting them which is designed around keeping women underrepresented.
Just because it sucks for me personally doesn’t mean it’s an invalid sentiment.
But I didn’t manufacture that and neither did you. It also, intentionally, ignores every single other intersection a white person could have.
Don’t worry, the sentiment invalidates itself. That kind of backwards bougouise feminism died in the 80s and should’ve stayed that way.
If you’re a white male, and I think I can safely assume that you are from your comments in this thread, you are the direct beneficiary of a system that has propped you up over literally everyone else. Understanding that system, and your role in it, is critical to trying to finally tear it down to make room for a fair and equitable one.
I didn’t manufacture the system, but I acknowledge it and all I can do now is continue to undermine it by pointing it out constantly.
It’s absolutely right to criticise the system that provides dividends for white people; for men; for straight, cis, able, neurotypical, tall, pretty people; and so on and so on… But even though I don’t fit into all those boxes, I don’t think that gives me the right to attack people that do.
So just because shitty men exist, we’re supposed to say “welp generalizing us is fair because technically men like this exist”?
I have found pushing back is useless. People are just waiting for you to be a horrible “fragile man” instead of just realizing that being accurate in who you blame for being shitty matters. So yeah I wouldn’t really conclude that if you see one example of someone being disgusting then you have to allow yourself to be falsely aligned with them.
You can just know the shitty generalizers are bigoted, and hope it’s a phase for them. I certainly have never seen any value in either supporting that generalization or fighting against it.
People on the Internet love thinking they’re better than you and that you’re scum. The only way I know to deal with it is just by accepting it
This definitely misses the power imbalance of punching down vs up. If someone genuinely believes all men are “scum,” yeah, that’s prejudiced. However, there is a big difference between a group that has less power in society pushing up against the class that has more power or oppresses them and the reverse. The idea that “y group is (insert pejorative)” and “x group is (insert pejorative)” are equally bigoted statements assumes that x and y groups are equal in social power. Statements like “men are trash” or equivalent don’t necessarily represent an individual’s true opinion of all men, but a general pushing back against a group with more power, many individuals of which attempt to exercise their perceived privilege over women.
Women that say “all men are trash” or similar might not be thinking with this level of introspection and subtlety, but it’s a subconscious reaction to their position as a group with less power. They rarely hold that on a personal level against every individual man, unless they’ve been deeply hurt. I have experienced things that make it harder for me to trust men. My friends have experienced things that make it harder to trust men. I do not think every man is evil. When you see the damage around you on societal levels, see the people calling for your rights to be taken away, see how they treat you like an object or property because of who you are, and you see it in the lives of many many people like you, it creates a resentment of the group that is responsible.
I am not suggesting that there are no women that take advantage of men. I am not suggesting that men cannot be abused. I am not suggesting that it’s okay to make men feel responsible for the actions of people that share only a gender with them, nothing else. However, I am explaining why women might feel hurt or disempowered enough to push back against men in general, and why “men are trash” and “women are trash” (though far more often, the phrase when targeted at women takes a sexual connotation: whores, etc) are not equivalent statements. Both the women that have been hurt and the men that feel hurt by the byproduct of their resentment are victims of the patriarchy. Until everyone, regardless of gender, holds the same societal power, there will always be people of all groups being hurt by the imbalance.
TLDR: Don’t resent the women who are a product of their environment saying “men are trash,” resent the patriarchy that hurts men and women alike.
Thanks for saving me the keystrokes here, I appreciate you (for real, which I’m having to say because text and… you know… how online people are).
<3
Additionally, statements like men are trash can hurt other marginalized groups. I’ve heard “men are trash” be followed or countered with “except trans men.” This is transphobic. I’d like to make it very clear that “men are trash” is an unjustly prejudiced statement, but it is one that is a product of a broken system. See: ACAB.
Ah, the kid brother defence. “But big brother did it, I had the right to!”
Still wrong! Someone else being shitty and prejudiced does not in any way, shape or form excuse your prejudice. I’m sorry you’ve had to face prejudice, but this way you are paying it forward.
I have never said or meant “men are trash.” I don’t know who gave you that idea. I explicitly didn’t excuse the behavior, I stated it was wrong and unjust, yet explained the societal nuance and why it isn’t okay to equate “men are trash” and “women are trash.” I’m paying nothing forward.
Honestly if you have to write paragraphs to defend something that is intuitively ignorant and bigoted to do, you’ve lost the argument by default
I think she “had to” write that much because she knew the thickness of the skull she was trying to penetrate. And your counter-“argument” only proves that point.
P.S. Just because you think something is intuitive to you doesn’t mean it’s correct. It just shows you’re part of the system that needs replacing.
We all know that grouping people together is shitty. I don’t have to make any argument
This is reductive. I do not disagree with the fact that generalizing diverse groups is wrong, and I made that fact clear in my comment. You either didn’t read my comment, didn’t understand it, or are maliciously choosing to misrepresent it.
I didn’t read it. Because it was defending the indefensible.
This
And if you took the time to read my messages, you’d recognize that I agree that saying “all men are trash” is an unjustly prejudiced statement. What you aren’t realizing is the societal pressures and power imbalances which you’ve conveniently ignored in your argument. You’re taking the same rhetorical role as the “all lives matter” people in response to BLM. I’m not arguing with you. I’m explaining to you. It’s your choice to learn or to stick your head in the sand, and it makes no difference to me.
See I made the mistake of reading this one and it’s emblematic of exactly what I was getting at:
- Extrapolates things I didn’t say
- Seems to imply a random stranger on the Internet knows more about me than I do
- Self righteous and egotistical
- Claims I’m ignoring things which are entirely beside my point
- Dodges the point which was simply that something which is objectively shitty is shitty
- Continues defending shitty behavior while denying doing so
- Compares me to disgusting assholes I hate and have nothing in common with
“Extrapolating things I didn’t say” is called inference, and you can claim something is beside your point but it doesn’t change the fact that your omission commits a logical fallacy. I do not defend shitty behavior, I demonstrate nuance, and yet I constantly see this response online to it. A nuanced position that contrasts your own does not necessarily agree with your opponent, and the ad hominem is just immature.
Committing the same logical fallacy as a “all lives matter” person does not mean I believe you to be the moral equivalent of one, regardless of my disagreement.
Pointing out something objectively shitty as shitty is not in debate. Doing so in omission of other key facts is the problem. Let me provide an example conversation, featuring person A and B, who are both going to be parents soon:
A: “I hope I have a girl!”
B: “I’d support whoever my child is!”
A: “I’d support my child even if they were born very sick!”
Both A and B are using a poor form of argument, which I don’t have a better name for than whataboutism, but is very adjacent to it. By saying “I’d support whoever my child is,” B is implying that A would not. By saying “I’d support them if they were sick,” A does the same. This is the same thing you’re doing when you say:
Dodges the point which was simply that something which is objectively shitty is shitty
You use this same rhetoric throughout your arguments, as do other commenters agreeing with you. I agree that thing is shitty because it was shitty. This is more equivocation. The point is not simply that “thing is shitty because of self evidence,” it’s that by saying this you form a false equivalence and minimize women’s experiences.
If you read nothing else, read this: My argument has nothing to do with whether or not pejorative generalizations are wrong, or to do with defending women who make such arguments. I agree with you on both of these points! My entire argument is that your response of “what if you did this to another group” while omitting the power imbalance that is intrinsic to this issue equates both groups, and therefore dismisses the existence of the power imbalance entirely.
You cannot reply to trans people saying “cis people are trash” with “what if you said that about trans people,” to black people saying “white people are trash” with “what if you said that about black people,” or the above example, or any other similar situation, without also including the nuance that a power imbalance does exist. To do so is to minimize their experience in a defensive position of privilege.
I do not want to be at ideological odds with you. I do not think “men are trash” is an okay thing to say. However, I understand that there is nuance here, and that hurt women are not the target of my ire; the unjust system that hurt them is.
I beg you, read this comment in full. You’ve painted me in your mind as a self righteous egotist, which couldn’t be further from the truth. I won’t continue a back and forth, but I do at least want you to understand that I’m just another person with a set of lived experiences, not a feminist demon from hell here to kick little boys. Men and women are both victims of the patriarchy. Have a good day.
So just because shitty men exist, we’re supposed to say “welp generalizing us is fair because technically men like this exist”?
Yep.
See the sibling reply from @[email protected] here for a great explanation about how power dynamics work on this topic, but also:
So yeah I wouldn’t really conclude that if you see one example of someone being disgusting then you have to allow yourself to be falsely aligned with them.
One example? Really? That’s horse shit and you know it. Misogynistic behavior is a rampant, massive problem everywhere; online and in real life.
Your comment proves my point. Hoping in vain that some day I’ll block all of you
I’d much rather you realize that your position here is rooted in emotion rather than reality than just have you block me.
I personally am offended by your user name.
Ok.
Have you tried not to hate yourself? WTF are you even on, there is a high chance that it’s a joke, and even if it isn’t why would “men” be scum here instead of individual?
I don’t hate myself.
I hate that enough men out there are such amazing assholes that it has created a generational issue which understandably has led to the assumption that as a man I’m probably an asshole too.
I hate that women understandably see me in public and make assumptions about my risk factor to them because victimizing women is way too common place.
Me, however, I’m pretty ok with.
Unless you are an asshole, why would you say that you are asshole, if you aren’t sure you can ask. Statements like ‘I don’t hate myself, but actually I think that I’m an asshole because someone else is’ are somewhat conflicting.
You can go ahead and cite your source for me saying I’m an asshole. I’ll wait.
as a man I’m probably an asshole too
Are you going to try to weasel out of your own words by saing that probably here means that you aren’t actually an asshole and you don’t believe you are?
Cherry picking out parts to remove context is a pretty lame way to “win” an argument bro.
Here’s that segment which doesn’t intentionally remove relevant context:
… which understandably has led to the assumption that as a man I’m probably an asshole too.
Which is—fairly clearly—saying that I understand why others might make an assumption about me.
So you assume that other people think that you are an asshole doesn’t actually mean that you think that you are an asshole? It isn’t cherry-picking when discussion started with you generalizing about “men” being not_good by default. There is little that is understandable about such a position, have you tried not to have negative assumptions about yourself and other people that you don’t know?
You’ve cherry-picked that out of context, they were clearly trying to say “other people assume that all men are probably assholes, therefore they assume that that I’m probably an asshole”
He clearly doesn’t hate himself. Stop trying to us vs them.
“Men” are harmful in the same way that you don’t put your hand on an electric stove. You assume it’s going to hurt you until you find out otherwise.
No, “men” aren’t harmful any more than “women” are, unless you are completely delusional. People don’t assume that random “men” are going to hurt them unless they have serious problems, or living in the active war zone. This over-dramatization doesn’t help anyone and isolates you from absolute majority if you really think that way. You can isolate yourself, just don’t act like it’s normal in any way.
Sorry but if you don’t see how that comparison is beyond not ok somethings wrong here. Which isn’t to say you can’t feel like that bc that’s just the natural result of bad experiences.
Easily half the turkish immigrants I’ve interacted with were people begging or threatening me on the street, that doesn’t mean I assume turkish immigrants are assholes. Because I know it’s both selection bias (most normal ppl just mind their business and don’t randomly talk to you, immigrants are poorer on avg so there are more homeless immigrants). And even if 95% were pieces of shit I’d still at most be more careful, but not somehow try to include all the ones that aren’t a problem in the group that I’m complaining about.
You don’t understand pounding down vs punching up.
I can’t even imagine the roganbro brainrot it takes to get to that place. It’s almost impressive in its insanity.
Agreed. I understand the words, but cannot understand the meaning of the phrases. What is “feminine” to voló? And how are ladyboys not part of the woke mind virus? And which type of guy is the dude talking about? It’s confusing to follow.
Pro tip: these people rarely ever make any sense, because they are mental ill.
MAGA is not a political party or ideology. It is a mental illness fuelled by narcissism, religion, tribalism, anti-intellectualism, and nationalism. It’s a dead-end death cult where feelings mean everything, and reality means nothing.
Isn’t the woke mind virus just not being a piece of shit, in essence.
The “woke mind virus” is basically these people not getting how other people can be empathetic to people who aren’t exactly like them
I saw a comment on YouTube a few weeks ago that I think perfectly captures the mindset of the people who scream about the “woke mind virus”.
The comment was something like “I never had a problem trusting a minority surgeon, but now they’re all woke DEI hires and I can’t trust any of them.”
In other words, “I had no problem with minority surgeons when there were almost none of them because I had to accept that there were a handful of ‘good ones’ that worked hard and earned it. But now that I’m seeing more of them, I know lots of the ‘bad ones’ are getting in that could only get in because it was handed to them because of their skin color.”
In these people’s minds, 95% of white people are “good ones” and 95% of minorities are “bad ones”. So if any respectable job has more than a few percent of minorities, the only logical conclusion for them is that there are lots of “bad ones” getting jobs they aren’t qualified for and didn’t earn.
Many people on the right think that everyone on the left supports tax payer paid gender reassigment surgeries for undocumented immigrants in custody just the same way as many people on the left believe that everyone on the right is misogynistic, transphobic racist.
Oh hey I saw that ad on YouTube also but was able to provide seconds of additional research and critical thinking but that can be difficult for some; apparently most.
51% of the country just voted for an openly misogynistic, transphobic racist and the vast majority of them were on the right soooooooo.
And the rest voted for a candidate advocating for tax payer funded gender reassignment surgeris for undocumented immigrants in custody sooooooo.
This game leads nowhere.
An extremely small number of surgeries that have been medically proven to improve outcomes of individuals is totally equivalent to supporting the rise of fascism. Sure buddy. Have fun supporting hatred and bigotry.
Thanks!
You have fun with 4 more years of Trump probably followed with 8 years of J.D. Vance because that’s exactly what this gets you.
You really get what you pay for with this guy
I’ll at least be satisfied with being on the right side of history.
everyone on the right is misogynistic, transphobic racist.
That is because the being a misogynistic, transphobic racist is the primary personality of the people on the right.
Don’t engage, block and move on.
This is why RFK doesn’t eat McDonalds to get the woke mind virus brain worms.
He shot heroin for 15 years to keep away the woke.
This kind of thing terrifies me. I think there’s a solid chance that that particular tweet is a joke, but the idea that there are people out there honestly concerned with the “woke mind virus” and about how women are this and that is horrifying.
Even more, the possibility that I’m just blind to my own insanity is what really fucks me up. What if they’re right and I’m crazy? Seeing so much insanity that you just have to wonder if your own sanity has been compromised.
What if they’re right and I’m crazy?
Keep asking yourself this. Try to honestly see things from their point of view. It makes you stronger. To paraphrase Sun Tzu,
- if you only think through your own beliefs, you’ll have a 50-50 chance of success.
- if you think through your own beliefs, AND understand your adversary’s point of view, you will always succeed.
- if you do neither, you will always fail.
Yeah, I reckon it’s good to question one’s own beliefs and presuppositions. Still, it’s upsetting.
Oh boy you are in for a treat
I love treats :D
What if they’re right and I’m crazy?
If I ever have that thought, I remember I’m not the one who hates people for immutable traits, or punches down in the name of humour
I remind myaelf of this all the time, to the point that this post pretty much wins the thread.
Tap for spoiler
(Seriously lmao the MRA’s choosing this thread to #NotAllMen in is just the chef’s kiss.)
(Which is on top of:
Sanity is overrated No i mean it i reject Sanism )
Is this another term for trans women, or something different?
Edit: thanks for everyone who’s educated me, this is really interesting!
In western trans culture, most trans women would consider being called a “ladyboy” or “shemale” an overly sexualized insult. It’s primarily used when referring to sex workers, not to someones identity. It’s similar to calling a random woman who has children a MILF. So don’t refer to someone as this unless that is a label they apply to themselves first.
I’m not knowledgeable enough to truly make definitive statements about how the term is used in Thailand, but from what I understand it’s a rough/poor translation from “Kathoey” which is used for anyone outside of traditional gender roles meaning a more direct/correct translation would be non-binary or queer.
On a related note, Femmeboy is a term used in the west, but that is specifically referring to a younger man/boy who is effeminate. It is specifically saying they are not trans, so could be anything from a femme gay boy to someone who enjoys crossdressing.
maybe “androgynous” would be a better direct translation but what do i know
Kathoey are definitely not androgynous. They are explicitly living as women would, and present very feminine as shown. To varying degrees of success in passing, but it isn’t an issue. Nobody tells them they can’t be kathoey. They just are.
There is a lesser known opposite, Tom. As in, Tomboy. These are afab who essentially live as men. Less so than kathoey, I will say, presumably because society isn’t as ready for afab to play male roles. But they will wear short hair, dress masculine, and usually have relationships with with cis-women, known as "Dee (for “good (girl)” 🫤). When was there more than a decade ago at the start of social media really taking off, there was a high-society generational trend of cis-girls dating tomboys in their late teens, as a way to be safe from pregnancy/abuse while still being the cool girl who dates on Insta. You imagine this to be pretty sad at times for Toms who get abandoned as soon as said ciswomen are more stable in life.
They are explicitly living as women would, and present very feminine as shown
Degendering, or refusing to gender a trans person by only using neutral language such as they/them is an incredibly rude thing to do. It’s the equivalent of two siblings going “I’m not
touchingmisgendering you!”. Obviously in the course of conversation using they/them makes sense for everyone in certain sentences. But at a certain point it’s just dehumanizing. I’m not non-binary, I’m a woman.Next time your BF/GF is getting dressed up tell em how androgynous they are looking and see how well they take it…
I’m using the plural. Kathoey is both singular and plural in Thai. I would hope you’d also pick that up from “women”.
I’m also being careful not to equate 1-1 the kathoey identity with the transwoman identity. They aren’t the same, though the global conversation I am sure will eventually bring them closer.
You’re correct on both points and that’s my mistake.
Not really, although it can be used as such, usually by folks who don’t really know what they’re talking about.
Gender identity in Thailand is complicated
Freaking fascinating.
Cross dressers rather than trans, from my understanding.
Sort of. I think it covers a range of things from trans to cross dressers.
I think it’s just something we westerners used before trans people popped into existence over here about five years ago.
Trans people didn’t “pop into existence,” they’ve always been here, even being an important group in the Stonewall riots.
It’s just that it became more acceptable to come out, so reactionaries went full-on open season on them in an effort to force them back in the closet in an aggressive attempt to protect their own fragile identities.
