EDIT 2: Ruud has posted some guidelines for community moderation
EDIT: I want to clarify that the purpose of this post isn’t to call anyone out in particular, and I think it’s best to approach this issue with a gentle hand. Users who are doing this aren’t necessarily ill intentioned, but may not realize the negative affect their actions may be having on the instance, hence why it’s important to have this discussion. That being said, I removed the link to the user originally mentioned in this post to avoid any possible witchhunts.
Original Post:
I’m not sure what to call them, but I’ve noticed a few instances of users on this server creating dozens, and in some cases over a hundred different communities, and doing absolutely nothing with them. No sidebar description, no logo, banner, welcome post, or anything.
I understand that some people may be doing this in good faith in an effort to make sure that these spaces exist in the first place. That’s fine and all - as long as you’re allowing other community members to step in and help maintain and grow these spaces you’ve created, I don’t really have a problem with it.
However, I think there are a good amount of people who are grabbing communities… just to squat on them? For some odd reason?
Take a look at this user’s account [redacted]. Doing a little poking around, it seems they’re an account that’s owned by a [redacted] company based in [redacted]. They also don’t have a single post or comment on record. So… Why do they own over 100 communities, many of which are simply duplicates of existing, popular Reddit subs?
I think the biggest problem here is that we may have users who want to create, cultivate, and grow communities that they feel strongly about, but when you go to set up a community only to find that it’s owned by someone who isn’t putting in any effort to make it a place for discussion, or outright doesn’t care about it at all, it’s going to discourage people from wanting to contribute in that way. First impressions are important, and these users might be turned off of Lemmy from an abundance of seemingly dead or spam communities.
What do you guys think? Is this an ‘issue’ worth thinking about, or will it sort itself out with time? I know it may not be super important in the grand scheme of things, but it’s a question that’s been on my mind for a few days now.
Server admins should let us know their stance on this behavior. It’s obviously not healthy for a community.
It is being discussed. We will make a statement on this asap. Thanks!
Appreciate the update.
My paranoia tells me it’s got to be a pro Reddit partisan plot to undermine the instance(s), but it doesn’t matter even if true. There just has to be instance owner guidelines that protect against bad faith power mods of any stripe. Strong checks and balances make a healthy administration.
Stopping users from registering communities is not going to solve the issue. We are setting up some guidelines for communities and looking for ways that this can either be detected automatically or reported.
More soon
Is there a place for people to report sketchy users?
/u/worldpeace is… acting sketchy. In particular, these are NSFW subreddit names he’s taking, so I think its an easy ban and therefore I’m pretty happy about publicly submitting a report here.
But I’m not sure how to even report a “squatter”. There’s no post, so there’s no “report” button. So I feel like the only way possible is shaming it publicly, like what I’m doing here.
EDIT: Might as well list /u/peace as well, while I’m at it. Big list of squatting community names, no actual activity… its so weird that people have programmed bots that do this.
Correct; policy on “community squatting” would be up to the instance owners; that being said I can’t imagine any healthy instances would have a policy allowing this behavior.
We’ll have a talk with the admins/mods on lemmy.world to see how we can resolve this. I agree that if possible there should be some kind of limit or at the very least if someone is just creating communities and doesn’t do anything with them for a given time they should be released.
If you’re interested in one of the communities I think the best way to go is to first of all create a post there, maybe asking what the vision of the creator of the community is and go from there. Maybe he or she is kind enough to hand it over.
But yes I’ll get back on this as soon as we talked it over internally.
EDIT: @[email protected] just posted the Community Moderation Guidelines for this instance.
Read them hereThank you! With so much rapid growth these things are bound to happen, but it’s good to hear that you guys are following up on this. Site admins have been rockin’ it lately.
Thank you for discovering this and bringing it to our attention. I don’t have much to add, other than I hope the admins and community can address and fix this.
I’m talking with Ruud to try and reach out to a moderator and, if he’s gone, change the ownership of a community.
So as long as you’re reasonable and not spam him, Ruud actually does help you via DMs in situations like these.
I know you mean well but the best place to discuss this is here. Yes Ruud is an amazing admin but he has a life and job outside of lemmy.world and the entire purpose of this community is to unload some of his tasks. We hear you on this matter and it is being discussed. We will come with an update shortly
Thanks!
I have no idea how he gets so much done! Between Lemmy.world and Mastodon.world AND a job and a family! I feel inadequate! Mad props to Ruud!
That’s good to know. He seems like a amazing instance admin. I may DM him about one of the communities from the profile in the lost that’s clearly just being squatted on.
Imma squat a racist far right hellhole and I won’t apologise
There’s some power modding going on atm. The most anyone should reasonably mod is 10. And that’s being generous. My guess is people just want to have as many communities as they want and to run them how they seem fit. Another day I saw a guy with a deer on their pfp that is a mod of like 60 communities. Shit like this could be a big problem later down the road.#
I agree, powermods running larger amounts of subs was a big issue for people on Reddit. Would be nice to try to avoid the same issue, though I’ve got no idea how it could be solved
If this problem isn’t under control, then I suppose people will just make a community with the same name on another instance with more strict community creation standards.
But it’ll damage the perception of THIS instance if this was not addressed.
So, I’d just say do:
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Limit the maximum number of communities one person can mod (10 per user is too generous, I’d say 5 max, unless they’ve shown themselves to be able to mod well)
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Remove them from communities they’ve started where they are clearly not interested in build a community and are just squatting for whatever reason, like zero activity, or having it just to prevent people from posting there (Remember r/blackfather? Yeah. Bad look.)
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and prevent them from starting new communities/bans for repeated offenders.
Ultimately, this is up to the admins though.
There’s a question here about whether or not /c require a community. You might be the only one interested in whatever, or your /c might just not be of interest.
I say this as someone who on other site had a simple /r where I just reposted things I found interesting to my friends, (all 4 of them) who mostly lurked with the occasional upvote.
I think that in creating ‘rules’ or ‘guidelines’ like this, we’ve got to be flexible enough to allow for very, very small communities to exist without requiring a level of community interaction.
It may be better to have a ‘minim effort’ level? Like, fill out sidebar, have one post every X months, something like that?
Oh, of course, all moderation should be done with a human touch after all, but in use case like yours, because of its decentralized nature it could be better if you just self-host and federate, so you don’t get drowned out by everything else here.
Shouldn’t be hard to tell if someone was behaving maliciously.
‘self-hosting’ for 4 users is very much a hammer to crack a nut.
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I came to lemmy.world hoping to create a community to replace my favorite subreddit. I found that the community had already been created but, like you describe - no logo, no sidebar. Also, as you describe, the moderator of that community had reserved multiple other communities. I began posting to the community in the hopes of generating activity, and I messaged the mod offering to help with moderation. The mod did not respond, so I messaged ruud to say that this mod appeared to be squatting on the community name - I pointed out that the mod had created neither logo nor sidebar. ruud contacted the mod, who immediately banned me from the community. The mod filled out the sidebar (a copy/paste from the reddit sidebar), this was obviously only in response to the concerns that I had raised. The community otherwise remains dormant and the mod is not actively maintaining it. Very frustrating. It is exactly because of this kind of nonsense that I looked for an alternative to reddit but it seems that lemmy is no better.
Hi @[email protected]. Adding the banner and sidebar info is only part of the guidelines. There should also be more than one mod (depending on the size of the community ofcourse) and if there is no activity there and he is actually just squatting that community we can talk about it.
Thanks for getting back to me. He said that he is holding on to the community name until he can hand it over to reddit mods, but it’s been two weeks - I would call that squatting. He only created the sidebar after I pointed out its absence. Then he banned me without warning or communication - I believe that this was in retaliation for me questioning his motives. I discussed it all with ruud but got no resolution.
I’m no longer interested in helping with moderation at lemmy.world, just sharing my experience since it’s relevant to this thread.
Mind telling me which community this is about?
Ruud just made me admin here since he’s got so much on his plate, so I’m here with some extra hands. Doesn’t matter if you’re no longer interested in being a mod, we just updated some community guidelines. So if it’s not for you maybe for someone else
Enjoy your day!
Search for my username in the mod log.
You too, have a lovely day!
Not that you should have to do this, but you could join another instance and create your community on that (no reason why you can’t be in more than one instance). Sure, there’ll be two communities in Lemmy about the subject that you want to participate in, but seeing that the other community is dormant, your active community will gain the gravity.
Again, this isn’t ideal, but is a way around it for now. However, something should be done to prevent this kind of squatting, so you don’t have to do this to circumnavigate the problem.
Edit: Seems that I’m parroting what @what_is_a_name said. I’m always late to the party. ;-)
Except that you would then have to manage additional accounts for the communities, since it’s not possible to make a community on an instance you’re not on.
So if said community is on the instance that you’re on, then you would have to do the subreddit thing, and make your own with a different name.
I did mention that you’ll have to make a new account on the other instance that the community is on. It’s not ideal and one shouldn’t have to do it, but if you’re desperate to set up a community, then it’s a way to do it.
However, I’d prefer it if community hoarding was properly dealt with. That’d be better.
that entire account clearly only exists to squat on names, should be banned imo
I think it’s basically a gold rush. Being the mod of a major sub got you some bragging rights but also commercial advantages.
I went to register a community for my city yesterday and found that somebody, just 2 hours prior, registered it along with easily 100 other popular subreddit names as well. I assume he just wants to benefit by being there already when the users eventually arrive.
My vote (if we even get one, lol) is to limit registrations to a certain # per day/week per account - perhaps 3 your first day and then 1 per day after that for now. Then after some time, enable some type of auto-expiration if the sub isn’t being actively used or moderated by that user - with some kind of warning process ahead of course.
Ultimately its up to the instance owners but I think its worth thinking about as early adopters what we want out of a technology like this. Or we could just wing it and hope for the best.
I personally hate any hint of people, groups or company’s trying to capitalize on the internet. Not the people shouldn’t earn money here or fund their projects. But I do think everything I want out of the internet is ruined by the introduction of groups trying to turn it into full time jobs. They all start to copy who was successful last week making content pretty much the same everywhere. It introduces heavy censorship since Pepsi doesn’t want to advertise next to unbecoming things that give potential customers the vapors. Lemmy seems like it’s built for users, not companies, marketers or interns at marvel inc to advertise their latest movies for free.
Reddits fall is directly related to how it attracted advertisers. Many times in ways that people didn’t even realize. Many posts were secret commercials made to look viral. Christmas was brutal with tons of posts showing off cheap alibaba merchandise followed by comments like “oh cool where do I get one” or T-shirt sellers acting like they bought a new shirt for their spouse.
My hope is lemmy is built to reject this stuff because they have ruined every space I have ever enjoyed. I have seen posts saying how this feels like 2000 era internet and I agree. It will feel like that until we allow those accounts in. Then we lose the fun again. It would be nice to reject those types but then how does this place grow. They control growth which is why reddit became dependant on them
You could also require a certain amount of activity in the community -posting, commenting etc
I’m not convinced this is a major issue that needs a coordinated response.
- There are hundreds of Lemmy servers, one can always make a community with the same name on another server. If an account is mass-registering one or more names across dozens or hundreds of servers, I’d consider that abuse that warrants a ban and closure of the communities.
- If you want to mod that community on that server, talk to them and ask to join the mod team. If they don’t respond, petition the server admin to oust them as inactive.
Creating dozens of communities and then ignoring them is irritating, but unless it becomes quite common and is coupled with follow-up behaviors to keep the inactive communities, it’s not real clear that it matters.
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Corporations or paid users moderating their own communities is a conflict of interest. It represents a massive threat to accurate information and a free internet. Yet, it is legal. Therefore, I disagree. Instance owners have a responsibility to watch out for these kinds of things
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That’s the most important question haha
I would normally say that those problems solve themselves with time, but the account you linked is indeed suspicious, only 18 hours old, 0 posts and 0 comments, and being mod of 169 communities.
I would report it to the admins to keep an eye on it, in case their purpose is spamming.
It would be nice/interesting if there were an automated timeout system if an account creates a community and does absolutely nothing with it
No welcome post or rules in 24 hours? Community deleted, free for someone else to do now
Maybe only count 1 post from the creating account and then x ones from others over y days to make it a tad bit harder to just bypass that requirement. If a community can make it past like a week it’s probably legit
You could bot that in no time. It’s just adding a small layer of complexity like adding a captcha. It might get rid of a few but not really many in the long run.
Larger malicious actors for sure, but it’d stop anyone doing it manually for whatever reason as well as free up ones people create and then straight up forget about
A fantastic part of Fediverse is that while someone may squat on c/pics on lemmy.world, nothing is stopping someone else actually launching that community on another instance. If that other person is actually growing the community - it will very quickly become the default recommendation in relevant searches.
A similar-ish thing happens with Facebook groups - even though it’s obviously not federated. Two groups can have the same name and each can compete for active users.
Truth. I did not think about FB … more Reddit where if someone is squatting on the ideal name and if you want to start a new community on the same topic, you need to get creative with naming.
Serious question, when I go to the top and search communities, I’m only seeing on for certain names. Do you mean there could be multiples? Is it only showing me the most popular one by that name? Can I join multiple communities of the same name to see everything? This seems confusing (first day here)
indeed.
Let’s say you’re into gravel bikes and are on Lemmy.ml … and i am also into gravel bikes and am on lemmy. world … .we can both start !gravelbikes communities on our respective instances … and the users will have to choose … one of u s is likely to do a better job growing their community and the users will flock there, search will rank that community higher . the other one will eventually wither away.
I knew I should’ve made the goth community, that fuck is squatting on it now. So lame.
