EDIT: no, I don’t sympathize with nazis (neither I sympathize with those who call everyone nazi when they’re losing an argument ;)
Most defederation isn’t because people are disagreeing though. It’s because the people they’re defederating from are assholes.
OP is a three day old account. They know this, this meme is just them crying about it.
Instance know for trolling and being assholes is eventually defederated
You just don’t understand us!
Lol right? And if you even try to engage it’s constant sealioning, memeing, and dunking.
Sealioning? No, you just won’t read my 10,000 word post that is copied from someone else’s pHD.
Edit: No joke, after posting this I got this message from a Hexbear user:
I’ve read all three volumes of [Das Kapital] around a month ago because I had an autistic urge to do it
tell me with full seriousness that you’ve even glanced at it
Have you even read Gramsci? You really can’t disagree with anything I say until you’ve read Gramsci. Sorry, I don’t make the rules!
This is why my instance is defederated with them though. It’s just bad faith nonsense all the way down.
I mean, it’s not a huge problem to read Marx or Gramsci before arguing about Marx or Gramsci. You don’t have to read all they wrote, of course. To form an opinion on Gadamer I don’t have to read everything he wrote.
That’s different than what I said though, which is that you can’t disagree with me without reading Gramsci. And is also typically how these authors’ names are invoked in arguments which are not about the authors themselves.
While discussing Gramsci - then they’d be obviously correct that you should be familiar with the subject to disagree or agree or anyhing.
It’s not even a good come back. It’s like saying that they’re right because they have the power of Shrek on their side
They are used to their echo chambers and high-fiving themselves. To be fair, I wouldn’t want to mess with them if Shrek was on their side.
Shrek seems pretty anti-authoritarian, so he’s automatically a lib and an enemy as far as they’re concerned.
You mean hexbear, kbin, and lemmygrad?
I hope so.
What’s wrong with kbin?
Yeah who defederated kbin?
You might wish to be aware that your instance’s top-level domain was chosen because ML stands for “Marxism-Leninism”, and that the main admin of lemmy.ml has a photo of Mao as his profile banner. So you’re probably going to have a hard time convincing your instance’s admins to defederate from Hexbear and Lemmygrad, all things considered.
Hexbear is known for trolling, regardless of their political stance, unless there is a material analysis that pig poop balls advances the cause somehow.
I’m just saying that if one wishes to be defederated from Hexbear, then one should migrate off of lemmy.ml first. The admins of that instance are not going to be open to defederating Hexbear.
thats totally fair. I’m not actually on lemmy.ml, and my instance sees no real reason to talk ibout hexbear. Their trolling isn’t disruptive to our communities, and is fairly easily filtered
thats totally fair. I’m not actually on lemmy.ml, and my instance sees no real reason to talk ibout hexbear. Their trolling isn’t disruptive to our communities, and is fairly easily filtered
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Also, regarding “a material analysis that pig poop balls advances the cause somehow” — basically ever since I first started seeing this sort of stuff coming from Hexbear in the brief time when they federated with Blåhaj Lemmy, I thought of stuff like pig poop balls in kind of the same way as, like, the climate/vegan activists who throw soup cans at paintings or pour milk jugs in stores or trespass F1 races or break fuel pumps or so forth. A lot of people express a lot of anger and frustration and annoyance at these sorts of things and say “How can these activists be so stupid‽ Don’t they know that this hurts support for their cause‽”, but… ehhhh, being goddamn annoying as all Hell is honestly a more effective form of political action than a lot of people consciously believe it to be. The video essayist Ponderful once said about this,
People criticize actions like milk pours and soup…chucks? Because it “gives the right something to criticize”…but it seems like that’s the point! And at the same time, it makes other climate activists look extremely reasonable and “good, actually” in comparison! If pouring some milk on the ground will mean that Daily Mail readers might hear some messages about how messed-up the dairy industry is, and then also maybe even consider old enemies like our Greta as good in comparison, then…yay! Yay, I say! And if it makes the public look kinder upon activists who actually target oil infrastructure, in comparison to what they see as random and annoying publicity stunts, then f*ck!gn ay!
Whether all of this applies in the case of Hexbear is something that people can argue about — it feels like kind of a silly comparison given that Lemmy is just an obscure social media platform, which doesn’t exactly seem like the type of place where meaningful praxis can happen… But it’s at least a thought that we can keep in mind. Hexbear has certainly succeeded in getting people on Lemmy talking and thinking about them and their beliefs, pushing the Overton window leftwards — especially if other, less annoying leftists look “good in comparison”. I’m kind of reminded of my own path towards leftism, honestly: I’d certainly been annoyed by communist interlocutors plenty of times over the years, but I think that without that annoyance, I probably wouldn’t agree with those selfsame interlocutors on so much today. That was just one of the many tactics that collectively led me down that path.
I don’t think that this is necessarily Hexbear’s intentional strategy in the same way as those aforementioned climate/vegan activists, but nevertheless, this is at least my spitball of a material analysis of why Pig Poop Balls actually does advance the cause. This is just a little advocacy for the devil, as it were.
I agree with a lot of this, but this is Lemmy. You can just be a communist here. I’m one. A lot of us are. They aren’t pushing the window left at all.
Yyyyyyou have a point.
But at the same time, there are also a lot more people on Lemmy now who came from Reddit and aren’t communists, right? So maybe it isn’t pushing leftwards so much as it’s trying to prevent a push rightwards. Does that sound more correct?
You can just be a communist here. I’m one.
I’m not a communist but I think it’s a welcome concept in discussing economic theory as I’m sure there are things that we can learn from.
I’m glad people like you exist who are not tankies. I wish that your group would be the actual face of your movement on Lemmy instead of those obnoxious Hexbear users.
i could certainly see that argument having same weight, but the practical application of it isn’t as a protest, but as a thought ending cliche. PPB is linked when the interlocuter has decided the thread is over, independent of whether they actually had much participation.
I agree, there is certainly a place for confrontational protest, hell, if your protest doesn’t make people upset, then its not working. But as you say, this is lemmy. Its not a good context, in my estimation, for a soup pour, particularly when that soup pour is in defence some pretty controversial stuff. Many will say this is milquetoast waffling, which is probably fair, I guess, but I am here to relax and I don’t find threat of disgust for mistepping someone’s Bizmarkian statist realpolitik to be relaxing.
And, ultimately, I advocate more for a filtering than a complete removal, simply because the discussion is important. There are forums here where conversation is ecouraged, and there ar forums where circle jerk is encouraged, and if the former is done stridently but in good faith, I want it to continue. I personaly don’t need the circle jerk, however.
i do appreciate your analasys, and it does make me view that stuff a little more charitably. I also appreciate your use of the interobang. This open source phone keyboard can’t do that yet, and I feel its a loss.
.ml domains are named for the country code of Mali, and are used because they are free to register
Yeah, and the admins of lemmy.ml are straight up tankies
ml was most likely chosen because freenom was giving ml (mali) tld away for free.
That’s why fmhy chose the .ml, but lemmygrad and lemmy paid for theirs, which is why they can still use it while fmhy.ml went tits up.
I also pay for a ml domain now, 11$ a year. Used a free one, set up my mail server and some other stuff, now I need that domain because of the mail adresses I and others from my family use. Lemmy.ml has lots of users, it’s the main devs instance after all. I don’t think that the marxist-leninist thingy is the reason for that.
Though I disagree with dessalines political views.
I hadn’t heard of that, but you’re probably right. It’s still mighty coincidental that 3/4 of the admins have Cuban or Soviet historical figures as their profile pictures.
This does not get more true if you guys repeat it over and over again. This is just nonsense.
I haven’t seen much offensive stuff from Kbin, but the other two are burning dumpsters.
Right. If I disagree with someone, I downvote. If people are being an asshole, it’s different.
Generally the assholes also think it’s because people just disagree.
Even radical left liberals are assholes.
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You asked a question and answered it next sentence!
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Torrentfreak is your best source.
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Why? Torrentfreak is a news site and does not promote methods of piracy.
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Yes, let’s enter discussion with the literal Nazis so we can try to understand them. There might be nuance to their calls for mass genocide.
Fuck off OP.
It’s funny how people always use play it like “oh, it’s just differing opinions” when what they’re actually defending is indefensible malarkey like nazis and tankies. They know if they made a meme saying we should “try to understand” nazis and tankies, they’d be downvoted to oblivion. And so they hide behind a shield of “differing opinions”.
These cretins have a right to post nazi and tankie shit on their own instances – them’s the beauty of the fediverse. But I also have a right to not want hate speech, genocide denial, and Hitler/Stalin/Mao simps polluting my feed. It’s not mere “differing opinions” when one person’s opinion is “Holodomor didn’t happen, and if it did, the Ukrainians deserved it” or “Holocaust didn’t happen, and if it did, the Jews deserved it” or whatever apologia they wanna peddle.
It’s funny how people always use play it like “oh, it’s just differing opinions” when what they’re actually defending is indefensible malarkey like nazis and tankies. They know if they made a meme saying we should “try to understand” nazis and tankies, they’d be downvoted to oblivion. And so they hide behind a shield of “differing opinions”.
There’s an actual term for this: Motte and Bailey. One of many hallmarks of disingenuous shitbirds.
Preaching facts right here friend
I bloody hate fascist
Another horseshoe theory take… Last I checked the “tankies” saved everyone from the Nazis. Let’s equate genocidal/colonial violence to defend capital, with the efforts to establish socialism. LOL
Tankies != communists
Tankies are the insufferable fascists who take on a red aesthetic. There are plenty of great leftists, commies, and progressives who don’t deny the Uyghur genocide or Holodomor or simp for Russia and the CCP. I’m not a communist myself (nor am I a capitalist for that matter), but I’ve got nothing against non-tankie communists aside from economic disagreements. Tankies I do have issue with, as should anyone who gives a rat’s ass about the working class and basic human rights.
Also, lol at that Stalin profile pic. Literally fetishizing a genocidal dictator who betrayed the working class and murdered millions of innocents.
Yes the angry internet trolls on Hexbear saved everyone from the Nazis, thank you Hexbear for winning WW2 for the world what would we ever do without them.
You realize that to someone that isn’t a terminally online political extremist you sound like those dumb Americans that try and claim the moon landing as their own accomplishment right? Your pasty ass has nothing to do with the brave soldiers that fought the Nazis, and I doubt those badasses would think much of some kid screaming into a computer about why liberals are bad.
Oppressive nations tend to have powerful armies.
Nobody is defuting that the USSR fought off the Nazis and had the biggest hand in their destruction.
But just because they fought a great evil, doesnt mean they were " the good guys". It just means they fought a great evil.
But just because they fought a great evil, doesnt mean they were " the good guys". It just means they fought a great evil.
Exactly! You can’t just divide the world into “fought against the Nazis” and “didn’t fight against the Nazis” and use that as your entire basis of morality. By that same logic, America is the Good Guys™ and has absolutely zero neo-Nazi problems because they destroyed Imperial Japan and fought against the Nazis, right?
It’s completely possible to fight against the Nazis and still be evil yourself (cough cough Stalin), or the reverse where the Finns technically cooperated with the Nazis, but only because the USSR was literally doing a colonialism against Finland and the Nazis happened to be the only ones fighting the USSR at the time.
Morality and history are not black and white, despite these lemmygrad users’ naked attempts to coerce them into being such.
“Better than Hitler” is really, REALLY not a great flex
Careful where you speak such truths friend, the Pronoun Patrol would’ve thrown you to the gulags if it was in their instance.
Found the tankie
Oh look, tankie horseshit. How many millions died as a result of “efforts to establish socialism”? So why don’t you shove that disingenuous bullshit up your ass.
Last I checked the “tankies” signed a non-aggression pact with the Nazis and only became a reluctant ally because they were betrayed.
If you follow your own link to a list of non-aggression pacts, Wikipedia lists 9 of them, most predating the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Other countries were signing these pacts with Nazi Germany. Not to mention the USSR attempted to create alliances with other European powers, but was rejected. The writing was on the wall that war was heading their way..
I can’t read the first link as it’s behind a paywall. The second link talked about how Roosevelt tried to establish cordial relations with the Soviet Union but was hampered by their refusal to acknowledge debts owed by the Tsarist government, refusal to stop spreading propaganda within the US, and the killing of Leningrad Communist party boss Sergey Kirov which " launched the first of the “Great Purges” that led to the death or imprisonment of millions of Soviet citizens as the Stalinist regime liquidated any potential critics of the government. The wide scope and public nature of the purges horrified both American diplomatic personnel stationed in the Soviet Union, and the world at large."
Gee I wonder why the USSR had such a tough go at getting allies…
HiTlEr WaSn’T aLl BaD
Hitler wasn’t all bad. After all, he did kill Hitler.
Only a good Hitler with a gun can stop a bad Hitler doing genocide.
Well, the Red Army did that.
Just ignore the genocides perpetuated by the Soviets…
If you want to ignore that for some reason you can, but the point is it wasn’t Hitler that stopped Hitler from commiting genocide. It was losing the war.
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He didn’t even want to kill all those people, he only wanted to exploit them and then deport everyone to Africa… but the Allies wouldn’t let him conquer enough Africa for all of them, so what was he to do? Killing then wasn’t even his idea, it was Reinhardt’s! He just signed it…
(do I put an /s? it’s historically correct…)
I’ve been successfully reporting troll-accounts and got them banned, I’ve blocked entire communities (mostly some niche-nsfw communities, so they don’t turn up in my local feed on my lemmynsfw.com-account). And I’ve found most community-moderators reeeeeeaaaaally don’t like fascists on their turf and if you see something and report something, most will get the boot.
This meme presents a false choice, defederation is not the only sane reason to choose (because understanding and/or engaging nazis is decidedly not sane).
Once an entire instance is gone though… defederate like there’s no tomorrow.
Right… So thinking that the Tzar’s invasion of Ukraine is unjustified is Nazi shit. Thinking that the Holodomor was a genocide is Nazi shit. Cuz that’s what ur tankie buddies called me. This is what OP was referencing to.
My dude, just today we had Neo-Nazis berating people outside Disney World about the supremacy of the white race and the need to eliminate all LGBTQ people. “Literal Nazi” isn’t some coded terminology that takes a PhD in Cryptography to decipher. There are no hidden meanings here.
There is a block button. You don’t have to scream for daddy Admin every time someone says something stupid. I, for one, want to call them out, not keep everyone from my instance from interacting with them.
every time someone says something stupid
Here’s a philosophical topic called emergence. Every “one” thing said by an idiot is one thing, but when pretty much every other comment becomes some asshole saying ignorant things it suddenly is something entirely different.
I saw the very early Internet (mid-80s) and what happened when you gave people benefit of the doubt. There’s been no demonstration that anyone has changed. So fuck those stupid assholes, the Internet is vast they can go carve out their own thing. That’s the nice thing, they have every tool to make their own LOLverse. But they don’t because they don’t want to suck each other’s dick, they want to be an ass to everyone else. Just as it was the case with
talk.*Same as it was, same as it ever will be. I for one am glad this time around people are being proactive. It shows that some have actually learned something.
Yes, let’s give the Nazis a platform to spew their bullshit. It’s entirely so we can laugh at them and completely could not possibly lead to them continuing to propagate their message of hate. /s
Fuck off. Fuck off as far as anyone has ever fucked off before, then dream the impossible dream and fuck off even further.
I don’t even trust you to properly define what a nazi is. People are calling Hexbar users Nazis, they are calling Lemmygrad users Nazis, and they call the lemmy.ml admins Nazis as well. Just because you say they are nazis doesn’t mean I agree with you.
What, is it only Nazism if it’s from the Reichstag region of WWII Germany, and otherwise it’s just Sparkling Fascism?
Maybe ask yourself why it is that when someone explicitly denounces Nazis you feel personally offended.
The Reichstag Region of WWII Germany, eh?
Like…from the Brandenburger Tor then?
I get what you are trying to say but to a German this is unnecessarily reductive gobbledygook.this is unnecessarily reductive gobbledygook
SelfAwareWolves material right here.
Wait… What? So I’m a Nazi or something who didn’t realize what they are because I told you that “the Reichstag region” is an ignorant thing to say when it comes to Nazis since the building itself is a sign of democracy and still seat of the German parliament? It burning was literally used by the Nazis to reduce democratic powers in Germany. You used the word because you happen to know it and it sounds all harsh and German to you.
Besides: De-Federating is a mistake. That’ll lead to them reinforcing their bullshit unchallenged inside of their echo chambers and draw in everyone who comes by and stays long enough. That’s exactly what strengthens the AFD in Germany or certain religious groups in the US. The only chance you have against them is engaging them and hack off little chips of their construct of lies and hatred until it hopefully collapses.
De-federating so you don’t see them and then pretending that solves anything is like throwing a blanket on a unexploded bomb that has slammed into your bedroom: You can pretend it’s not there all your want, until one day where the cover is being lifted rather radically.
On the contrary, deplatforming works very well. In the wake of Reddit banning FatPeopleHate and CoonTown the Georgia Institute of Technology did a study on walling off and removing “safe spaces” for bigots:
Working from over 100M Reddit posts and comments, we generate hate speech lexicons to examine variations in hate speech usage via causal inference methods. We find that the ban worked for Reddit.
More accounts than expected discontinued using the site; those that stayed drastically decreased their hate speech usage—by at least 80%. Though many subreddits saw an influx of r/fatpeoplehate and r/CoonTown “migrants,” those subreddits saw no significant changes in hate speech usage.
In other words, other subreddits did not inherit the problem.
Banning an entire bigoted instance from yours, i.e. defederating, will accomplish the goal of reducing and removing bigoted behavior from your instance.
Yes, it worked for the platform. It didn’t make the bigots go away. They just withdrew. No one actually changed their mind by being banned. They will just move to ever smaller platforms until they land on a platform where they are the only crowd and there they will keep reinforcing each other, leading to more radicalization.
That’s exactly what I said: defederating will make the problem invisible to you, but the hateful bigots will still exist.
I’m tired of people thinking that racists and bigots and morons deserve a warm shoulder to vent to. It isn’t anyone’s responsibility to make someone be something they aren’t, and it’s really suspicious anytime someone tells you that you should be nice, or hear out, or let join people that hold disgusting views.
They will become more radical, but they will be prevented from radicalizing others. When normal people encounter the now hyper-radicalized members of the deplatformed groups, they will tend to write them off as the crazed radicals that they are.
Convince those who you can. Exile those who are too far gone. Doing the opposite in either instance is harmful.
Why is it every instance admin’s responsibility to fix bigots? What is it about running a Lemmy instance that obligates people to actively work to find the one glimmer of redeeming quality in these human septic tanks? Why should the targets of their hatred have to do all the work to avoid being victimized?
Well it isn’t, nothing does, and they shouldn’t. Bigots are the ones in the wrong here, and kicking them out works plenty well. Bigots spread by being given platforms. Take away even one of those and it lessens the spread.
“We shouldn’t have echo chambers” is just propaganda from bigots who were upset that their soapboxes got taken away. Stop falling for it.
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Exploding-heads no longer exists because they got defederated by everyone
You forgot the “except for Nazis” part. No one wants more nazis except nazis and they can fuck off.
You are advocating for nazis. Fuck off.
Fuck that. Defederate all Nazis.
More like de-head-erate all nazis lmao
Lmao “try and understand them” fuck off, OP. You’re not fooling anyone. There’s no point trying to understand assholes.
Assholes maybe. Nazis no. There is definitely a point where someone is beyond saving and you need to simply cut them off, and Nazis are far, far beyond that line.
This post assumes that a meaningful amount of defed instances are caused by simple lack of agreement. Often, it’s an orthogonal matter - it boils down to instance A actually understanding something about the userbase of instance B and saying “I’m not dealing with this shit, it’ll make the instance worse for its own users”. For example: the typical user of B might be disingenuous, or preach immoral prescriptions, behave like a chimp, or be a bloody stupid piece of trash that should’ve stayed in Reddit to avoid smearing its stupidity everywhere here.
Are instance admins too eager to pull the trigger for defed? Perhaps, in some cases; specially because it handles groups of users instead of individuals. But those cases are better addressed through actual examples, not through a meme talking on generic grounds.
The cool part is, if your instance admin starts doing stuff you don’t like, you can super easily just go to a different one, or even go about hosting your own that you control and decide who to federate with
Well, once they fix the whole “each instance copies the media from other instances automatically” thing. I’d love to self-host a vanity instance if I didn’t have to either worry about CSAM or just nuke the entire pict-rs facility via script.
…actually I wonder if that’s an option on kbin. Even if the Mastodon interoperability is a bit wonky right now I like the platform working with both services on ActivityPub (thus why I’m here).
Yup. As a side effect: admins that are too eager to pull the trigger might get their own users pissed, and they’ll eventually leave. So a successful admin needs to make sure that the defed is the best for his userbase.
Thanks for a cool-headed comment!
No offense but this is kind of what happens in real life too. Nazi shows up to local bar. Barman or owner doesn’t throw them out. Eventually they invite their friends. It winds up being known a Nazi bar. People who don’t want to associate with Nazis no longer visit the bar. This is why intolerance of the intolerant is a thing.
The paradox of tolerance.
Tolerance must tolerate all but intolerance of tolerance
Tolerance is a social contract.
If you refuse to be bound by it, then you are a direct threat to the contract, and those who follow it, and should be treated as such.
Funny thing is, the Nazis would use those same guilty by association tactics to silence and crush dissent.
Yeah, but the difference is that the nazis wouldn’t be right or even honest, unlike the ones who oppose bigotry and genocide. You can’t tolerate intolerance to death.
Defederating brigaders and trolls is necessary to maintain a healthy community. If your instance is defederated from all major instances, perhaps you should look examine what sort of company you keep.
With that mentality we’ll all become beehaw. The cesspool of don’t look at me funny.
What a telling perspective.
‘people posting stuff you consider harmful’ is not a simple, black and white issue. Anyone who pretends that allowing all opinions has no consequences is full of shit, anyone who claims that tightly policing opinions has no consequences is full of shit.
Like almost everything in life, you will have to navigate a tenuous balance between these two things and you will never know if you got the balance right. You are just a sack of meat doomed to die.
You might be doomed to die, I’m going to upload my consciousness to a Boston Dynamics Murder Dog 9000.
Not just managing to live until the inevitable furry genetics era out of spite.
We are getting close to massive life extension/ clinical immortality.
People were saying that about cryogenics.
Humans have a vast body of knowledge about how things work. It’s a shame its dwarfed by the vast body of knowledge we are completely ignorant of.
Much as scientists managed to be surprised that life had evolved to eat garbage in the pacific garbage patch, it seems some will manage to be surprised that when humans eliminate one source of mortality, another inevitably evolves to take advantage of the ever-growing supply of humans.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/cZYNADOHhVY?si=Zh_dgcBUU8Z6o1Mr
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
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I want my experience to be free of that shit, as well as “look at this cute picture of Stalin being a silly boy, hehe”
I think we understand the other side just fine. They’re a combination of malignant narcissists and complete idiots.
laptop?
Ah I see, thanks.
Fuck off nazis.
Follow your leader and kill yourselves.
Well said. There is a lively song by the Dead Kennedys that explains with nuance and understanding this same sentiment.
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Imagine thinking racism and child porn have arguments worth listening to. Just defed and forget they exist.
What a simple, stupid argument.
You can’t enter a discussion with somebody who’s just trying to bombard you into submission. OP is wildly ignorant or just somebody sad they’re being defederated on a different account.
Welcome to [email protected]
Yeah op’s a fuckin moron to an extreme level
I’m so glad that the comments have (mostly) finally unified in agreement that defederating Nazis and other hideous people is the right move.
We tried every other form of debate on the topic. If people are engaging in a discourse in bad faith in hopes that they will benefit from the publicity, your best option is to ignore them.
Yup, exactly
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I’m not up to date on the drama. Who got defeded?
I think it’s mostly about Hexbear, Exploding heads and lemmygrad.
Exploding-heads.com went down. They moved to nostr afaik.
Good riddance.
Unless the nazi wears red, then let him spew his holocaust denial because “western propaganda imperialism butwhatabout they deserved it it never happened.”
But seriously, fuck them tankies.
Yeah, let’s try to understand child abuse images /s
Let’s find the middle ground with Nazi’s too!
I want to stab you in the back 8 times, you don’t want to be stabbed at all.
Let’s compromise and I stab you 4 times.
We can surely work a way to achieve peace for our time!
Yeah! They put on a red shirt, that means they’re cool!
