What Israel is doing to Palestine today is exactly what America did and is doing to their indigenous population. Why do you think they’re allies?
Why does anyone think Israel was there first??? Lmfao. Their own Torah says otherwise.
“God gave this to us” isn’t a legitimate argument.
i think most people don’t know the history and just figure it’s a normal country we’re allied with for the normal sort of reasons
I think this is the one relationship where people do know some version of the history.
Even less when they wrote it themselves.
Kinda hard to ungenocide the groups that originally lived there, though.
The cannaanites? Yeah man the Bible says the Jews drove them out.
But its cool cause like Baal worship or something.
“we took it fair and square” works actually here and there.
But they didn’t take it fair and square. Thats kind of the whole point here.
possession and firepower determines what is fair and square.
But it’s basically the same argument the USA used.
Manifest Destiny.
As it happens, they and the Canaanites were both Semitic peoples. In this particular point it’s probably inaccurate to consider Canaanites and Hebrews as seperate people at all. The Exodus from Egypt is both largely mythological and, one might note, was probably any freed slaves returning home instead of seeking new lands.
The Semitic groups (which includes Arabs) are basically everyone not Persian or Turk in southwest Asia.
Both proto-jews and Arabs inhabited the land currently known as Isreal. It should be noted that the proto-Jews left the lands before actually becoming Jews.
Because Arabs came there only in 600year a.c. While Israely were there from 10 000 b.c. Along with other tribes, but not Arabs. But then Arabs made up Muslim and started claiming everything and being cry babis if not allowed.
Not according to the Bible
I don’t believe a book where all people started from Adam and Eva having two sons, one of them died and second one giving birth to more man etc, without women. Where they fucking goats? Also this book is stupidly bloody, unjust and outright dumb.
That’s funny cuz that is exactly what Israel is basing their claim of this land on.
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I mean, the US sucks, but they don’t just support settler colonial states for its own sake. They support Israel because it’s strategically useful to have a US friendly state in the middle east that’s small enough that they will basically do what we say (unlike Saudi Arabia). Also a significant portion of Republicans in congress think that Israel/Palestine being controlled by Jews is a necessary precondition for the Rapture. The US is more indifferent to the genocide of the Palestinians than anything, which imo is just as bad, but it’s important to look at the material causes for things instead of just saying “these two countries have similar ideologies so they’ll be allies”.
All of that is true AND they have an ideological solidarity. Think of it like this: If there was a genuine landback movement and the Illegal Occupation of Palestine was seen as what it is, then people are going to start looking at the Americas and noticing similarities. For a country that was built on the same settler colonial genocide, claims to be democratic when it’s clear they’re not, and subjugation of minorities. Oops.
Every square inch of land on earth has “changed hands” so to speak, multiple times by multiple peoples, mostly non-peacfully. How far back does a “land back movement” plan to go? The only fair option would be to DNA test bones from before the last glacial maximum and find descendents with the highest genome similarly and reshuffle all existing populations back based on their earliest ancestors. Or move all humans back to Africa and leave the rest of the world to the native wildlife. Or is it just the US and Canada because they were the most recent? Will we include Mexico and make them give the country back to the Aztec, or do they get a pass because Spain isn’t considered as bad as those pesky Brits? Do we try and find populations of tribes conquered and replaced by the Aztec?
Do we have the authority to freeze all national borders as they are right now in perpetuity to preserve national and racial identities? Are you in favor of the world going to war against Russia to prevent colonial genocide against Ukraine? What do we do with the current peoples existing on their lands now? Do we break every country on earth up into ethnic tribal lands, or City-States? European colonialism of Africa and the Americas was broadly terrible at the time with many lasting issues, but it’s not exactly unique in human history, so I am honestly curious what the end goals look like.
How far back does a “land back movement” plan to go?
Chief, I’m not reading whatever genocide denial you’re about to write after this. We’re talking about a genocide so big and widespread that it not only put the holocaust to shame, but was literally the thing that directly inspired the nazis to do it.
Not sure where you get genocide denial out of what amounts to “humans have been genociding each other since the Homo genus common ancestor split off”. I am asking if anyone actually expects any country on earth to decide that decades, or more likely centuries, in their past they conquered the land they now claim from another people group and now we feel bad about what our ancestors did so we are giving the country back to the most direct descendants of that group.
Are there actual expectations that the US is actually going to give everything or anything east of the Mississippi back to the native tribes, and/or Texas back to Mexico? Do we expect Canada to give BC back to their indigenous tribes? Obviously current relations with both groups need to be fixed because there are ongoing issues, nor should we celebrate the atrocities that happened during any of the colonial movements.
The Americas are also different from the colonialization of Africa, Asia, and the Middle East because the colonists moved there and stayed there instead of setting up exploitation of resources to send back, thus allowing “decolonizing” of those places to happen. And then decolonizing caused further problems by the colonizers drawing borders on their way out. This isn’t to advocate that they stayed colonies, nor do I think these places would have peacefully self-assembled into their own countries if Europe had just dropped everything and left. Human nature would have still had different land and resource wars happen as the native populations filled back in the power gaps.
Genocide is still as bad now as it was then, and even less acceptable because of our modern and “enlightened” morals. This applies to all ongoing genocides and ethnic cleansing attempts. I’m saying the cat is out of the bag on this though, and no government realistically fears any land back movement causing them to support any other country’s existence.
Not sure where you get genocide denial out of what amounts to “humans have been genociding each other since
👋
Ah, yes, I understand. I did sadly expect there to be nothing articulable backing up this nebulous land back idea beyond apparently a general “US (or maybe just people of European descent in general) bad, and so we must somehow undo centuries of colonization by just giving some undefined land back to undefined people, which is totally possible because sovereign countries voluntarily give up their territory all the time”. I thank you for the enlightening discourse on this topic.
They aren’t denying any genocide.
I don’t see the distinction you’re trying to make between settler-colonialism and … what? The US is a settler-colonialist project, because it allows them to steal land, or control it via compradores, in their best material interest. Israel is no different, which is why western capitalists created and funded it: a colony run by and for white european millionaires in the ME.
Colonizers still get along
I wouldn’t say that. The Democrats at least are pissed at the continued encroachment of Israeli settlers into the West Bank, which is making any sort of peaceful resolution more and more difficult. And anyone with familiarity in the situation knows that is by design of the genocidal and ethnic cleansing settler movement.
I wouldn’t say that. The Democrats at least are pissed at the continued encroachment of Israeli settlers into the West Bank
their billions of dollars they give each year to israel says otherwise
Not pissed enough to actually do anything about it, mind you.
And the Israelites weren’t the first either, there’s a few books of the Bible about who exactly they pushed out.
This might surprise you but the bible isn’t 100% accurate.
Jokes aside: scholars think that the Israelites were a group of Canaanites who lived as “outcasts” in the hinterlands and seized the cities after the bronze age collapse.
So Israelites came when the Canaanites collapsed but the causality is different than depicted in the bible. Also they weren’t that foreign in the first place.
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I’m not sure why you put “history” into quotation. I was referring to history as in archeology.
The arguments are according to pottery and art in general, linguistics and I think genetics too. The first israelite settlements were in the north and therefore not were you would expect them if they arrived from Egypt. I don’t know if Abraham was a historic figure and it honestly doesn’t really matter.
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Yeah, iirc the Isrealite ethnic group was a combination of Canaanites and tribes from near Canaan that invaded during the Bronze Age Collapse. Though the religion is mostly Canaanite-derived, Yahweh and Elohim, the two main titles/names used to describe the Abrahamic God in the Torah are descended from the Canaanite gods Yaweh and El, who were syncretized together into a single god sometime before/during the early 1st temple period.
Edit: Though there’s also loads of Mesopatamian influence, the Noah’s flood myth is directly based on the Mesopatamian flood myth that eventually made it into the Epic of Gilgamesh. Plus lots of ancient Isrealite folklore is derived from Mesopatamia, like Lilith, who is probably derived from a kind of demon in Mesopatamian mythology that fed on newborn children and was in league with Lamashtu, who was basically an Anti-Fertility goddess, considered responsible for infant mortality.
Pushed out? You mean committed mass genocide.
While one may oppose and even condemn particular Israeli policies or actions with regard to Palestinians or Israel’s Arab citizens, the fact remains that in no way has Israel engaged in any action with the intent to exterminate, in whole or in part, the Palestinian people.
Indeed, accusing Israel of genocide has the collateral effect diminishing real acts of genocide – such as those that occurred in the Holocaust, against Armenians, and in Rwanda.
Furthermore, it is deeply concerning that Israel is often the only country in the world accused by activist groups of contemporaneously engaging in genocide. Not only is this false as a matter of both law and fact, but it also applies a singularly demonizing double standard to Israel.
Finally, claiming as some do, that there are many “types” of genocide, and Israel is, for example, committing “cultural” genocide, is equally problematic. Regardless of how the term is applied, it is clearly heard and impacts a large audience who hear it as the legal term intended to convey the most awful of human crimes – mass murder and population expulsion – a charge that is misapplied to Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Aside from their tendency to murder military aged Palestinians… Sure I guess aside from all the proof otherwise?
Bro there’s no if about it, the un has repeatedly warned the public about Israeli soft genocide.
It’s 100% not the only country accused of genocide that’s objectively and really proved false.
There are many types of genocide, as genocide is an act not a specific action.
Eyuppp
This might surprise you but Bible is new book written not so long ago while Israely were there from 10000 b.c. Fighting other local tribes until Muslims where invented and came with all their sadistic hate to other nations and killing infants just like they behave now. No excuses. They need to be wiped out, like Russia and other tumors on Earth.
This might surprise you but Bible is new book written not so long ago while Israely were there from 10000 b.c.
Verifiably no, there’s argument at to if ancient Israel ever existed or of out was a loose confederation like the early German empire.
Fighting other local tribes until Muslims where invented and came with all their sadistic hate to other nations and killing infants just like they behave now.
There’s exactly zero proof of that and literally no one knows who started what or when.
No excuses. They need to be wiped out, like Russia and other tumors on Earth.
Like you perhaps.
What matters isn’t who came first. What matters is that no one has the right to expel a human from a land they’re living in. That is the core of the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
I am pro Palestine, but have no issue with the increase of Jewish migrations in the 19th century. The problem is not Jewish migration. It is the fact that Israel expelled Palestinians from their homes, murdered them, suffocated them, and made their lives miserable.
And this is the same thing that was done to the native people of the modern day Americas.
This is an honest question, is Wikipedia just wrong on that? Because there they write that Palestine also expelled all Jews and that they moved to Israel for that reason (because they weren’t allowed in Palestine). And also they write that Hamas specifically want all Jews to be gone.
If Wikipedia is wrong, where do you get your information from?
Please feel free to ask any questions! I am happy to answer them all
Can you please cite which part of Wikipedia is saying this?
“Palestine” and “Israel” are two names for the same region, so it doesn’t make sense to be expelled from one into the other. I think there must be a misunderstanding here.
I bet this is referring to certain Arab States expelling Jews during the creation of Israel and the British occupation of Palestine, as a retaliation (which was horrible and stupid and I fully condemn it). But keep in mind this is well into the conflict, when Zionists and British occupation were already well into committing heinous acts and massacres, and that this is Arab States who sympathized with Palestine, not Palestine itself.
What I was referring to was treatment of Jews in Palestine before the Zionist project.
As for Hamas’ anti-semitism, I think some background information is important here.
When it was founded, Hamas was not a popular group by any means. Popular Palestinian resistance groups at the time were socialist and progressive, such as the PFLP and other members of the PLO. Hamas was founded as a Muslim brotherhood affiliate, and its charter had many anti Semitic references.
Israel saw this as a huge opportunity, and it propped up Hamas while fighting off other groups. Fast forward to the 2000’s, every Palestinian resistance group was left defeated, and Hamas was left as the only group left fighting. Palestinians had no choice but to support Hamas.
This was a major change for Hamas. It saw hoardes of Palestinians join its ranks, and most were not ideologically aligned with them. There are even Christians fighting among its ranks. This caused an ideological shift within Hamas. It was even reflected in its new charter in 2017, which dropped anti-semitic rhetoric and said it is fighting against Israel, not because of its religion, but because of the Zionist occupation. You can find this charter translated online easily.
Since then, many Hamas officials reiterated their position that they are not fighting to expel Jews, but against Zionist occupation.
Palestinians today see Hamas as a vehicle for their liberation, and not as an ideological alignment. But even then, most of the people in Hamas do not hold anti Semitic opinions anymore, and we should keep in mind this major shift throughout its history.
Wikipedia is kind of wrong in the sense that there’s always been Palestinian Jews.
The issue is that due to Zionism, a ton of European Jews moved into the region starting at the turn of the last century and accelerating following the Holocaust.
Said Jews then set about building a thriving western-style industrialized democracy that was opposed at every turn by an Arab and Islamic population that opposed its very existence on what can only be thought of as religious grounds.
All of which can only be taken as an indication of how deeply corrupting and counter-progressive are virtually all forms of institutionalized organized religion.
Fuck all of them. Organized religion sucks ass and should rightly be seen as a vestige of the past.
Said Jews then set about building a thriving western-style industrialized democracy that was opposed at every turn by an Arab and Islamic population that opposed its very existence
I am pretty sure that they were concerned about being expelled from their homes and massacred, and not because they hated “thriving industrialized democracy”.
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What country are you in?
The US has a large Jewish population by number.
Didn’t Arabs and Palestinians just flat out refuse to coexist with a Jewish state from the start? The international community proposed a solution and they refused to accept it.
Certainly if they chose to fight, and lost, then they have to face the consequences which might include losing their land.
That’s hardy unprecedented, the very city I live in was largely founded by seizing lands from the British during the American war of independence, because they lost…
I would say while yes it’s “wrong” to kick someone off their land, both parties have to at least be reasonable and willing to compromise when you have a complex ethnic and religious issue. Otherwise conflict is inevitable.
None of which is to excuse any war crimes committed by either side. I just think it’s more nuanced than “israel bad apartheid state”.
Didn’t Arabs and Palestinians just flat out refuse to coexist with a Jewish state from the start?
“coexist with a Jewish state” is a bit of a contradictory statement. Arabs coexisted with Jews fine prior to the Zionist project. A Jewish state is by definition a state exclusive to Jews. That’s the opposite of coexistnece by definition, and yes that is exactly why Arabs (Muslims and Christians alike) refused it.
Certainly if they chose to fight,
Resist*. they chose to resist occupation, expulsion from their homes, massacre and genocide.
fight, and lost, then they have to face the consequences which might include losing their land.
Ahh, so if someone fights you for your land, destroys your home and genocides your people, then they’ve earned it?? Well I should not be surprised that someone who lives in a nation founded on genocide thinks this is okay.
yes it’s “wrong” to kick someone off their land, both parties have to at least be reasonable and willing to compromise
“hey man, I know I just took over your home and burned your family alive in front of your eyes. But you gotta be reasonable here and be willing to compromise!”
What more of a compromise do you need beyond coexistence? That’s all Palestinians have asked for, and Israel continues to deny them basic rights, no matter how peaceful they are.
And I end with: Israel bad apartheid state. It is truly that simple.
Ahh, so if someone fights you for your land, destroys your home and genocides your people, then they’ve earned it?? Well I should not be surprised that someone who lives in a nation founded on genocide thinks this is okay.
Nice try putting words in my mouth, but I never said any of this was “OK”. It doesn’t have my “blessing”, I merely gave my observation grounded in reality, of how the world works. Hell no, if it was up to me, everything everywhere would be resolved peacefully, fairly and with diplomacy, not violence.
Honestly given your tone and snide remarks, I suspect you are too emotionally invested on this topic, for whatever reason, to have a rational discussion.
But either way, the ability to occupy and defend land will remain the determining factor in maintaining sovereignty, now and in the future. You can’t count on the international community, and you can’t count on what’s right or just. ( call me a pessimist, I’ll agree :)
But there are Arabs even in military right now so you are wrong, learn first then judge.
Wrong about what exactly? What does having Arabs in the military prove (or disprove)?
Jewish state is by definition a state exclusive to Jews. That’s the opposite of coexistnece by definition, and yes that is exactly why Arabs (Muslims and Christians alike) refused it.
How does the presence of Arabs in Israel’s war machine disprove that? You didn’t answer this question.
There were Jews who fought in the Nazis ranks. Based on your ridiculous logic, the Nazis are inclusive of the Jews (obviously incorrect because your logic is flawed).
There were black people fighting in the US armies as well, even during Jim Crow era.
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When I fuck my wife I always come first! And that’s exactly what I tell her.
Where is a good place to start to learn about this conflict. I have no idea who is in the right here.
I understand and appreciate you trying to learn. I think one of the issues why nobody can really point you to a good resource is that there are no 100% neutral resources that document “the conflict”. Even just where/when you start something like a timeline can be biased.
Keeping all that in mind I have found a video that gives a short simplified summary of the base history.
https://youtu.be/1wo2TLlMhiw?si=_ANEgker8DzQZQxR
I liked it (might be part of my bias since I like crash course). But I’m sure there are mistakes in there and as above some details/framing might just be due to biases of the author’s/presenters etc.
Yeah definitely a problem finding truly unbiased information. I’m paranoid my whole world view is shaped by western rule even though there is more free speech here than anywhere else… or is that idea also propaganda lol
I will give that a watch when I have some time later thank you.
Tbh this gets you down a very weird rabbit hole, especially if you’re in tech. When you start to look at cybersecurity and the direction it’s heading, a lot of cutting edge stuff uses a zero trust framework. cybersecurity as a field has realized that information and data is so ubiquitous at this point that it cannot be trusted at all and has to be authenticated and checked at every step. That’s real defense in depth there; making sure that every level independently audits the information it uses within the context it needs.
But speaking as someone studying cybersecurity and is getting entrenched in the field & community, once you learn how much you can trust trust you really get a baseline level of paranoia. And to be honest, in my opinion the only thing to do is embrace it. It’s difficult and you’ll probably want to fuck off and become Amish, but once you see information as just information to be used, consumed, manipulated, and shared as needed the possibilities really open up. The future is only going to be more information and data dependent. Being able to intuitively tap into that is like a super power.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/1wo2TLlMhiw?si=_ANEgker8DzQZQxR
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
If you want a book, 100 Years War on Palestine does an excellent job going over everything up to 2017.
Very in-depth, full picture of everything that’s happened from 1917 (what just about everyone considers to be the beginning of the modern conflict), including errors and crimes committed by both sides. The author is Palestinian and obviously not neutral, but is far from extremist, and comes at things with a historical/academic rigor.
There are many other books/resources of course, but at least as far as getting a decent idea of what actually happened thus far, it’s a very good history of the conflict, major players and the geopolitics associated.
I think you either mean rigor, or rigeuer, which is short for de rigeuer and more related to fashion rather than academic credibility.
yeah lol edited
Neither party is in the right. Israel is a violent apartheid state, and Palestine is large ruled by a terrorist organization. Both Israelis and Palestinians have the right to exist, but neither side’s leadership respects each other’s existence.
The victims in all of this are both the Israeli and Palestinian citizens, so taking a side isn’t really a sound option. I am failing to see anyone who aligns as pro-Israel or pro-Palestine make coherent arguments about what happened this week. The only reasonable alignment is to be anti-war, anti-terrorism, and anti-apartheid.
I place some — not uniformly distributed, only on those that do this — blame on the Israeli citizens that knowingly move into a recently captured area. They’re literally colonizing the Palestinians land. I don’t fuck with colonizers.
I’m curious about how this is done. Do they just kick Palestinians out of their homes or do they make new towns or what exactly happens that is so effective at displacing others?
Iirc they literally just take over some land, forcibly remove or execute anyone who won’t leave, and then they move in and start building. Literal colonizer behavior.
Edited with a source:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/7/8/how-israel-backs-settlers-to-confiscate-palestinian-lands
palestine was there first, Israel is a far right state dedicated to a colonialism of Palestine
Israel is the wrong side.
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Hamas is not even a fraction of the concern that Israel is. Casualties are not even order of magnitudes close. Even the horrific ways in which Israel has tortured and murdered Palestinians is unmatched by Hamas, despite it being a militia rather than an organized army judged by the international community.
Israel has burned children alive, they have officials who bragged about raping and torturing children, they make people destroy their own homes by THEIR OWN HANDS. And this is while Israel has the upper hand, yet it is still the more horrifying of the two by many orders of magnitude. Comparing the two is sickening.
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Honestly, trying to find a definitive ‘in the right’ of any large-scale conflict is tough, almost moot. Especially since moral values like ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ are subjective, and that small groups of powerful people may not represent a whole. Complex reality doesn’t fall neatly into these ideals of right and wrong.
Here is all clear.
There’s an old crash course world history video about it
Edit: Oh someone already linked it.
Nobody is, and that’s the wrong question to ask.
In that case I need to figure out the right question to ask
I mean, yeah, that’s the hard part of life.
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The one who lives civilian and not murder infants and not spending all money on rockets instead of developing own cities and culture. Oh, and not claiming wrong claims, not deceiving others. They are terrorist, lyers and complete garbage just as Russians and Iranians are right now.
Arabs came to those lands at 600 year while Israely ancestors were there from 10000 b.c.
Other than a small minority of religious zealots, the pro-Israel folks don’t base the justification of an Israeli state on ancient history.
This is usually only brought up to rebut Palestinian claims that they were their first.
The justification for the modern state of Israel is that the entire world sat by for years while the Jewish population of Europe was slaughtered. Most countries closed their borders to fleeing Jewish refugees.
And the Holocaust was just the latest in a thousands-of-years long history of Jews being scapegoated and exiled from almost every county in Europe.
The post-Holocaust refugees needed a place to live, and needed the autonomy to self-govern and to defend themselves.
So, they worked with the international community to carve out a tiny piece of land, and tried from the beginning to create a two-state solution.
The neighboring Arab countries shot this down because they assumed that they could destroy Israel and take everything for themselves.
Which is exactly what they tried to do.
To everyone’s great surprise, Israel won. And they’ve been fighting for there survival ever since.
Even today, Palestinians aren’t asking for peaceful coexistance. They elected a government whose charter includes wiping Israel off the map.
At a certain point, Israelis military might crossed a threshold where the world is no longer concerned that Israel might not survive. And at that point they decided that Israel was no longer the underdog, and sympathy for them started to wane.
Now a lot of people who love to root for underdogs in any situation have decided that Israel is the villain.
It goes largely unnoticed by them that Israel has never once been given the opportunity to have a peace with the Palestinians with any deal in which the Palestinians did not secure Israel’s total destruction.
I agree that Jews have been horribly persecuted for millenia. I understand that a bunch of countries decided that there needed to be a Jewish state to protect Jews from further persecution. The part that I don’t understand is why did these countries give them land that was already settled by someone else? Why didn’t these countries give them their own land?
The way I understand it now would be like me arguing that homeless individuals have been persecuted enough and they need their own home. Therefore, me and my friends have agreed that they can have my neighbor’s house without my neighbor’s consent.
The one argument I’ve heard is that the land was the ancestral home of the Jewish people. However, it seems hypocritical to me if this argument holds true for the Levant but not all of the Americas. To maintain integrity and congruence based on this argument, then I’d think Israel would be highly allied with the Native Americans to help them get their ancestral home back. Because this isn’t the case, it seems to me that I have been misinformed about or misunderstood the reasoning behind giving Jewish people this land. So, what is the actual reason for this specific land??
I really just don’t get it.
Note: I am not arguing that…
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Jews haven’t been persecuted
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there shouldn’t be a Jewish state
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Palestinians/Hamas are right in attacking Israel
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Israel can’t defend itself
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Palestinians should be able to defend themselves
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innocent people haven’t died
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anything about religion
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anything about terrorism
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whatever else someone might assume and get heated about
I really just want to understand the reasoning with valid congruence.
Why Israel? It’s because they’d already been a movement for decades before World War II by Jews to buy up that land because it was their ancestral Homeland. Also we aren’t talking about a highly populated region. Half of modern day Israel is desert.
So why didn’t countries give up their own land? I mean, Britain would have considered that their own land. They had possession of it, and they were the sovereign power governing it.
Why didn’t Europe give up prime real estate to Jewish refugees? Because in all of history no one has been that generous to any refugees let alone Jews.
Ahh, thank you! So some of the land was bought, which makes sense. Also, Britain was the colonial ruler, so they had the power to dictate how the land was to be used.
Were they voluntarily ruled by the UK or was it forced?
Did the people living on that land agree to give it up entirely, either by selling or donating it? If they did, then are they going back on their exchange? Or were they basically told to leave by the UK?
I think it’s irrelevant if the land is desert or not because if people live there, they live there regardless of the climate.
I really am trying my hardest to understand and avoid any arguments that are based on typify-ing a group of people as bad or immoral based on ethnicity, religion, nationality, race, etc. I appreciate this discussion 🙂
I think another issue is that there’s not exactly a lot of habitable land that isn’t already habitated. Like, where would you have them placed, Antarctica?
To the above persons point, you’re either giving up some of your own prime real-estate, or you’re offering some spot in some colony you own. The latter was chosen.
Now, there’s a whole separate debate about the evils of colonization in Africa and the Middle East, but that’s more to the point of Britain being the bad guy, not the refugees who were looking for any port in a storm and decided to take the land that was offered.
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What you said would justify Israel’s violence ONLY IF ALL PALESTINIANS AGREED. They do not. Pretending it’s OK to run a reverse-genocide because Jews had it rough in the past is frankly pathetic. Beyond pathetic.
Israel’s violence? You mean self defense?
Genocide? ROFL… Right. Sorry, I mistook you for a serious person for a second.
Ahahahaha you don’t think Israel commits violence, and you have the gall to question MY humanity?
You are beyond pathetic. You are sub-human trash for ignoring violence and genocide. Literal breathing garbage. If your answer to violence is to spread violence further… I don’t care what god you claim to worship: You are still trash.
Israel is great at violence.
But violence in self defense is justified.
I’m glad we agree that the people being invaded and displaced had a valid reason for this attack.
Do you know any Palestinians? My wife worked for a couple that were forced to leave, good highly educated folks. The wife was an attorney, when Isreal was formed she was told her law degree was worthless. She went to school, got an Israeli law degree, was then told she needed to speak Hebrew. She went back to school, learned Hebrew, was then told lol nah you can’t actually practice law now. Shorty after their house was seized, it had an olive orchard that had been in their family for generations.
It goes largely unnoticed by them that Israel has never once been given the opportunity to have a peace with the Palestinians with any deal in which the Palestinians did not secure Israel’s total destruction.
That’s not how imperialism works friendo.
Great story. Got anything to back that up, or just the word of an Internet stranger?
“Nice job backing that up with a source, but the source needs to be in Hebrew”
Personal anecdotes aren’t verifiable sources, but thanks for trying.
I really don’t give a shit if you believe me or not.
Do you know any Palestinians?
Yeah, went to law school with a Palestinian.
I take it you never talked to them about the occupation.
If your point is that you think I don’t know how bad the occupation is, you’re wrong.
The issue for me is that when you decide to walk away from the negotiating table, and start blowing up school buses, I really couldn’t give less of a fuck what your grievances are.
And you think radicalization like that happens out of the blue? Do you condemn what Crazy Horse did and use the same logic on all indigenous people?
The whole fucking situation sucks but to say something as ignorant as “the imperialists wanted to negotiate with you” you’re obviously coming at the situation from an point of view, one you might not even believe to be as biased as it is.
You also are treating all of the Palestinians as a homogeneous group, a line of logic used to justify their genocide. There are radicals and there are moderates, to call off negotiations because of one group takes away any political power of the other. “You can’t control this group of people that we are responsible for radicalizing, so I guess we have no choice but to keep stealing more land and oppressing your people.”
The amount of disinformation in this post is unreal and would take hours upon hours to explain why. It’s so easy to spread disinformation like you and people like Trump do and takes so much work and effort to refute.
Europe should have given them Germany not Palestine.
Jews had already been buying up a bunch of land in the region for decades before the start of WWII, and this was a largely undeveloped patch of land.
Not even remotely true that it was undeveloped. Some ppl buying land in not their country isn’t relevant in any way. I’m not saying there were no Jews there. Just that there was no Jewish state which is a fact.
I mean, there was also never a Palestinian State there if that’s what the world should go by.
You mean in the former British colony that was gifted to them.
Takes two to tango.
Country 1: I want us both to exist.
Country 2: I want only one of us to exist.
Internet genius: TakeS tWo to tANgo.
All sides think this applies to them. Which goes back to my point. Everybody is their own good guy. Nobody thinks they’re doing wrong.
Good thing their personal opinions on whether they’re a ‘bad guy’ are irrelevant.
Who’s?
Anyone’s.
Here’s the thing, the one with US backing has the claim, it’s that easy.
I fuckin’ hate that our so-called leaders decided that.
unless you are backed by russia and china, then you have the claim, but will be a declared dictatorship by westeners.
dictatorship
/dɪkˈteɪtəʃɪp/
noun
government by a dictator.
‘the effects of forty years of dictatorship’synonyms: absolute rule, undemocratic rule, despotism, autocracy, tyranny, authoritarianism, totalitarianism, absolutism, Fascism, oppression, suppression, repression, subjugation, domination
i was joking and not very serious with the comment, i thought that would be clear, i am sorry
are my “views” really that extreme, if i can think of two real life exemples for my joke? (North Korea & Afghanistan) i would rather say it was nieche, but extreme views?
Missing the point. The point is someone who was being serious could have said the same thing, which is why you were downvoted.
the thing is, the original commentor said kinda that, but from pro-US POV. i just wanted to remind everybody, that US is not the sole decider for a existing state, because there is alot of states in history and present, that are not backed by US, but by the other super powers on this earth.
i even got some more famous examples: Cuba, Myanmar and the other two African Countries that were couped in recent past.
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It turns out rape is part of genocide.
Or just regular ol’ love. Not that rape wasn’t (and isn’t) a part of genocide, slavery, and other atrocities.
And that 1/16 is the only part that has a real claim to American lands
No it’s just some bullshit white people tell themselves.
White US Americans. If you talk about your “heritage” in Europe, people will consider you clinically insane and avoid you like the pest.
It’s funny, I grew up hearing that and thinking I was some odd percentage native American only to find out that I had no native blood in me when doing a DNA test. I did find some African and Asian ancestry though so that was cool, never even knew/heard about that.
Well, you’ll be interested to know that those tests will often show African and Asian dna when it is in fact Native American dna, but because of the genocide we don’t have enough examples to properly test.
So you may very well have native ancestry.
I just assumed it was the white families trying to pull shit like “oh I’m not racist, I have a black fiend” but with ancestry. Which could still be the case I suppose.
I was told the same story. Took a DNA test. I am whiter than white bread. 99.8% Western European. My family wanted to argue with me about it.
The Jews weren’t there first. The Canaanites were there first.
Of which the Israelites are believed to have branched out from/are descended from
Zionists are basing their irridentism on the Torah, and from what I’ve read, the Canaanites existed in the area before Abraham was given the land as a promised land.
Something tells me that the Torah isn’t exactly a reliable historical source.
The Cannanite - Israelite connection is suggested by modern achaelogical information which I take as a little more reliable.
Depends which Zionist you ask but ok.
And then slaughtered all the other branches
Got any sources for that? Since I can’t seem to find anything that supports that claim outside of religious texts
If we use that as precedent then we should let them fight with a winner takes all
Hello, why did my comment get removed?
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It’s very narrow-scope to frame this conflict as just about one attack at a music concert, and furthermore to think that a decades-long invasion, colonization and blockade shouldn’t be compared to other acts of colonialism.
Also, please read the community rules before posting, there are only two of them.
Oopsie
Very interesting!
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Because they don’t want it, simple as that. Why do you think they’ve been illegally stealing Palestinian land and bulldozing their homes for illegal settlements for decades?
They have. The issue is that their country was drawn up, by Europeans, without the consent of the people that were already living there. So the Palestinians, rightfully, don’t want any Israel to be there at all, on account of it being on land stolen from them.
I know a lot of the world is European living in stolen lands, but, surprisingly, none of the rest of the people give a single shot what happened in the last 500 years, they simply just want the intruders gone.
Imo the whole “let’s give Jewish people a state after the holocaust” thing was a good idea, but they should have put it Germany. Germany were the ones who actually Did the holocaust, therefore there’s some argument to be made that they were entitled to German land, you could consider it a form of reparations. There was no argument for Jewish people being entitled to Palestine because their ancient ancestors lived there like 1800 years ago or whatever
the settlement started before British support which came later. It’s super complicated.
edit: reasonable overview on Wikipedia of events leading up to Israel actually https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
Bastardised simple summary is
- Europeans treat Jewish people like shit for thousands of years
- creates support for Jewish sovern state
- languishes a while but antisemitism gets worse
- in typical European fashion it is decided to just start settling where other people already live and force the existence of a country
- ww1, Britain and France decide they know how to do a middle east. Results show typical commitment to stability and fairness.
- settlement is supported by various and sundry European powers inc German Reich in lead up to and during ww2 because everyone hates Jewish people and wants to foist them off to some other, preferable brown skinned, person’s country.
- after ww2 everyone eventually gets mad at the results of this sensitive and thoughtful plan, including European supporters, neighbouring countries, Palestinans, and many Jewish people. Fear and hatred fuel dominance of increasingly aggressive right wing political parties.
- everyone except the USA that is. Their government has a blast supply weapons after Britain and France wash their hands and claim guiltlessness.
- land grabs and oppression intensifies
I don’t fucking get on how Israel has never really tried forming a state in which both palestinians and jews can live in peace together.
The Zionist terrorist of the British Mandate period were founding members of the state of Israel. For example Menachem Begin who later became a founding member of the Likud party which Netanyahu belongs to. These asshats from the start wanted to get rid of all Palestinians/Arabs and get the whole country for Jewish people. That’s why the Zyonist terrorist fist targeted communities where Jews and Palestinians/Arabs were living together in peace. Netanyahu is just continuing this goal and he would rather die than to allow for a stable two state solution to become reality.
The “one state solution” is the only real way forward but it’s not surprising it’s not very popular. The Jews would be a minority in this hypothetical country and there are two problems with that:
One, the right wing types types really will only accept a Jewish-dominant theocratic state as an outcome. Everything comes second to that. Even the others feel like they “need” a safe state that’s free from generations of oppression against Jews. There are more Palestinians than Jews right now, so giving those Palestinians any kind of political representation is a non starter.
Two, how do you think the Palestinians feel about Jews right now? How do you think they would behave if given political power right now? I’m not saying they’d all turn around and look for equal but opposite revenge but I doubt they’re happy about all this. Further, do you think the Israelis are going to want to put themselves in that position?
So because of that. while i think the one state solution is the only realistic non-genocidal way forward i’m not optimistic about it coming to pass.
What you’re saying in the last part is basically that the Zionists fucked up and because of them fucking up the conflict became so polarized that a one state solution is impossible.
I agree with that but only because it’s like that today, but there have always been means to descalate diplomical situations but if the state Israel keeps voting for Netanjahu I don’t think that things will be better.
The problem is though that he is a populist and everywhere on the globe populists are getting power and there does not seem to be a solution in sight for that problem.
I agree that this is the situation today and not the situation yesterday, though i don’t see it changing tomorrow (as i said, i guess). I think back in the 1990s a two state solution was conceivable, even, but that was a long time ago.
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The people under apartheid aren’t accepting their place? Shocker.
Israel will never know peace while they continue to oppress Palestinians.
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“There’s no justification for terrorism, so here’s my justification for oppression.”
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Israel won’t know peace if they stop either. How did the US and Canada solve ‘the problem’ with the natives?
If they’re damned if they do and damned if they don’t then why not do the right thing?
Because they would get killed by the radical islamists
The same reason why in the US we have people attacking trans people (even when they’ve literally never seen one in person) and why our monopoly laws have gone from “chop them up for the common good” to “you better stop it or we might levy a symbolic fine”
The political window has been shifted so far right that the left’s position is “we need to be nicer to the people in Gaza, but really carefully since they’ll subjugate us if they have the chance”
It’s not an accident, it’s a small group of people with a lot of money who are investing it in hijacking discourse for their own power.
If you get on tv and start pitching socialism, you’re instantly dismissed as a radical. You can’t even have the conversation - people don’t understand what that means and will instinctively recite nonsensical talking points, because they’ve been fed those for so long it would take an intensive college course to unlearn enough that they can have the actual conversation of “would this work better”. The vast majority has internalized the idea that “raw dog capitalism is the only feasible system”
It’s the same with Israel. They’ve been fed propoganda so long that you can’t have the conversation - they’ve internalized the idea that Gaza is a bunch of animals who want to kill them, and the furthest left thing you can pitch to them is “well, maybe we should improve their situation economically, but we have to be careful not to let our foot on their neck slip off too fast”
Fun fact - there’s a lot of overlap with the groups doing this in the US and the ones doing it in Israel. By that I mean literally the same groups are funding both propaganda efforts, like the heritage foundation
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In Israel Muslims and Arabs and ethnic Palestinian citizens do live in relative harmony, with all the same rights as Jews, including ability to be in government leadership.
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Throughout all of Israel’s history it has been cold, hard, fact that if Israel were to give citizenship rights to ALL Palestinians, those Palestinians would have the ability to vote Israel out of existence… To turn it into an anti-Jewish theocracy. And half a century of terrorism and attempts by surrounding countries to wipe Israel off the map shows that they are very inclined to do just that.
That’s why Israel angled for a two state solution. Peace WITHOUT the destruction of Israel.
Both of these statements are just wrong.
https://www.britannica.com/event/Balfour-Declaration
Zionism really kicked off in popularity with the Balfour declaration which was an attempt by Britain to sway Jews everywhere to be sympathetic towards British interests. Zionists we’re upset at the lack of action in the subsequent years by the British and began smuggling Jewish settlers into the mandate, causing tensions with the local Palestinian Muslims, Christian’s and, to a lesser extent, Jews.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/gallery/2023/5/15/ethnic-cleansing-by-zionists-in-palestine
This is how the foundation of the state of Israel started. When the UN voted to establish Israel they gave a near 50/50 land split when Jews were less than 25% of the total population and Palestinians made up more than 60%. People were clearly mad and the events of the Nakba occurred.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/
Since Israel’s domination of the land and both Palestinian Territories, Israel has increasingly gone with right wing governments like the current one in power, that has not all that slowly, nor all that suddenly, codified laws that keeps Palestinians as an underclass even within the borders of Israel. It’s become an apartheid state in many ways.
If you read up on the history of Bibi Netanyahu, who is still currently in power and has been for around 20 years, you will find he’s never really been shy of hiding his intentions to make Israel a state for just Jews.
None of your links rebut any of my claims.
Third link:
Amnesty International’s new investigation shows that Israel imposes a system of oppression and domination against Palestinians across all areas under its control: in Israel and the OPT, and against Palestinian refugees, in order to benefit Jewish Israelis. This amounts to apartheid as prohibited in international law. Laws, policies and practices which are intended to maintain a cruel system of control over Palestinians, have left them fragmented geographically and politically, frequently impoverished, and in a constant state of fear and insecurity.
Can you read? It’s the 4th and 5th paragraph.
Yeah. Can you?
Amnesty international has created a logical fallacy in claiming that Israel is apartheid. For that claim to be true they are assuming that all Palestinians in the occupied territories are somehow disenfranchised subjects of the Israeli government.
If that logic were true, then we would have had to have said the same thing about Iraqis when the United States occupied Iraq. But of course that’s a ludicrous claim. The United States didn’t suddenly become an apartheid nation just because we conquered enemy territory.
Just because a territory is under military occupation does not mean that the people in those territories are citizens in waiting.
On the other hand, the Muslim Arab and ethnic Palestinians who ARE citizens of Israel have all the same rights and privileges as Jewish citizens of Israel.
First thing: the current leader of Israel has explicitly stated Israel is a state for Jews
How is the current PM of Israel explicitly stating the government is just for Jews not disenfranchisement?
Second thing: there’s a difference between formal citizenship and full citizenship
The fact that there is a difference precludes equality.
Think of it like this: when Trump was President he could have come out and said that the United States was a nation for Christians alone.
He could say it. He could get applause for it. But that wouldn’t make it true.
In law school I took an Israel-US comparative law class. Israel doesn’t have a constitution, but they do have Basic Laws which serve the same purpose. Among those laws are guarantees of equal protection regardless of religion.
So, think Israel’s PM as an Israeli Trump. He’s a dangerous, opening corrupt zealot, but he had a lot of internal opposition, and his words are not law.
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Palestinians lost the right to claim they’re not Hamas when they elected Hamas to lead them.
The opposition party only has 14 percent support.
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The different is that Trump has never cracked 40 percent support in the US. Hamas has gotten at high as 75 percent among the Palestinians.
Also Trump lost the popular vote. Democrats have always had more support.
Hamas’s opposition only has 14% support.
So sure, not all Palestinians support Hamas, but the overwhelming majority of them either support Hamas strongly or are on the fence about them.
It’s hard to form an opposing party when the regime has a tendency to assassinate anyone who does. Do Palestinians really support the principles of Hamas, or are there just no other options in Gaza?
I totally agree. Palestinians have a difficult road forward. But them sorting their own shit out is a prerequisite to their ability to make and execute a peace treaty.
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It was Israel who decided that they wanted Hamas to lead palestinians rather than the Palestine Liberation Organization.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
For decades the PLO had shown that they were not interested in peaceful coexistence. And that would prove to be true in the following decades as well.
In funding the PLO’s political opposition, Israel was attempting to charge the political landscape, and weaken the PLO.
Remember the PLO might have been secular, but they were still terrorists.
In that context you can see how creating the group that would someday much later evolve into hamas was a bad gamble, but hindsight is 20-20.
Relative harmony shouldn’t include soldiers targeting the heads of teenagers with “non-lethal” rubber bullets and killing them for sport. The torture will continue until compliance is achieved.
Correct. Which is why any soldiers that do this are subject to the justice system in Israel. It’s not condoned behavior.
But do you see Palestinian police rounding up the Hamas terrorists?
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Is just completely wrong: For example if you’re now Jewish, you are by law literally not allowed to drive on highways.
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Is reactionistic speculation and literally racist.
Omegalul, downvoted for being right.
Please check your facts, this is completely wrong. People of all religions enjoy equal rights in Israel. There are Muslims, Christians, and others in government positions, in the police and army, judges, and in every other sector. Movement and transportation is not limited to anyone, especially not based on religion. Please don’t lie.
“In a 2007 report, U.N. Special Rapporteur for Palestine John Dugard wrote, “elements of the Israeli occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, which are contrary to international law” and suggested that the “legal consequences of a prolonged occupation with features of colonialism and apartheid” be put to the International Court of Justice.”
"On 1 February 2022, Amnesty International published a report, Israel’s Apartheid Against Palestinians: Cruel System of Domination and Crime Against Humanity, which stated that Israeli practices in Israel and the occupied territories equate to apartheid and that territorial fragmentation of the Palestinians ‘serves as a foundational element of the regime of oppression and domination’ "
this is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid
Another thing from this article is this; “Foreign governments who have used the word “apartheid” to describe the situation in Israel or in the Israeli-occupied territories include those of Bahrain, Bangladesh, Bolivia, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Nicaragua, North Korea, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Venezuela” I know that quoting this may be unsupportive to my argument at first, because I don’t like these countries at all, and I am not pro Hamas because I don’t want any religion to govern the rest anyway, but I think what one really can see in this is, that this topic is so polarized, that it’s very hard to find the truth and that is why I quoted the UN part
And here is the issue I described: https://www.france24.com/en/20190204-focus-israel-palestinian-territories-apartheid-road-highway-4370-jerusalem-segregation
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the Isreali government has a long and increasing history of systematic oppression of palestinian people, both inside and outside of the occupied palestinian territories. https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
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This is definitely not true. If you are Palestinian you don’t have freedom of movement inside Palestine let alone freedom to enter Israel. They’re not all permanently barred (gotta let them in so they can work for Israel) but they’re not free.
You’re also not able to live in peace in Palestine. Settlers regularly come in and drive people out. Food, water. medical supplies, and more are tightly controlled by Israel.
There are non Jews who are Israel citizens, including some Palestinian people, but that’s a different story and those are not the people we’re talking about.
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Palestinian. They have the exact same rights as any other citizen
That’s so ridiculously false that you’re either wholly ignorant about the reality of the notoriously discriminate ethnostate that is Israel or deliberately lying to further a false narrative.
Can I just say how nice it is that we can have multiple links in a comment and it doesn’t get automodded and silently hidden like on reddit?
You can, provided that I’m in turn allowed to wholeheartedly agree 😁
Let me just take the majority of your house, leaving you with only your bathroom, and then tell me how wanting me out is trying to invade my territory
That’s some top notch equivocation there. We’re not talking about whatever ethnicity you’re referring to as “Palestinian”; we’re talking about the people who live in Gaza and the West Bank, none of whom are granted any rights by Israel.
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There are far more ethnic Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank living in third world conditions, who are denied Israeli citizenship than there are Palestinian Israeli citizens, and even the ones with citizenship are subjected to a level of racism and state violence comparable to Black Americans in the Jim Crow south.
There are about 7 million Jews in Israel and about 2 million Arabs. (With like less than a million “others”? Something like that.) Palestine’s population has been declining (for some… mysterious reason…) but there are still about 5 million Palestinians.
It’s simply a question of the numbers: you can have a theocratic Jewish state of Israel or you can have a representative democracy that gives equal Rights to the Palestinians, but not both. Likud is a party of theocrats and they’ve all decided long ago which is more important to them.
They don’t want Israeli citizenship. That’s laughable that you’d even write that down.
Imagine being disliked because you’re sworn to murder the people who live next to you… shocking.
So
you’repeople are saying native Americans have every right to kill, maim and rape settler-colonialist Americans? And that they’re all legitimate targets, since they’re all settlers?I get it.
Edit: OP didn’t say that. People on Twitter did. I didn’t separate that. It’s an emotional topic, I have friends who are directly affected by HAMAS atrocities.
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Woah people genocided deserve to kill their genociders
So you’re saying native Americans have every right to kill, maim and rape settler-colonialist Americans?
Where did OP say this? It is a bannable offense so please point out where, as I don’t see it.
I see you made an edit, so I’ll respond to it here.
While no one should have the right to rape anyone or murder innocent people, the only one to blame for these atrocities is the Israeli state. They are keeping millions of people in a concentration camp, massacring them slowly every day, destroying their homes, cutting off supply lines and giving them just enough living resources to experience slow death. They burn their children alive. Their soldiers brag about raping Palestinians.
So then if those people lose it and retaliate, who are you going to blame? Those trapped in the concentration camp and chose to resist? Or the ones doing it to them?
And in reality, despite all of this, Hamas has been far more humane in treating Israelis than Israel is with Palestinians. They protected their hostages, and have a history of doing so. They give mothers and the elderly special treatment.
If you are upset about rape and cold blooded murder, look no further than Israel. If you’re outraged about Hamas, who’s not even a fraction the concern that Israel is, your priorities are not right at all.
Hamas has been far more humane in treating Israelis than Israel is with Palestinians.
Bye.
