Every day they get bolder and more dangerous. If we keep tolerating these terrorist recruits and radicalized extremists then soon we’re going to be awash in violence.
MAGA storms the capitol, MHGA storms the white house. Same nuts, same radicalism, just different sides of political extremism!
Political exiles, huh?
I am truly shocked that The Jewish Press is conflating the anti-Israel stance with pro-Hamas.
Fuck Hamas. Fuck the Israeli government. Both groups are terrorists
Political exiles, yes from mainstream groups that ban descent regularly if one isn’t on the anti-Israel, anti-jew, pro-hamas wagon train!
We are pretty close… I can go with Fuck Hamas, and I’m regularly echoing fuck Bibi and Likud!
Where we might disagree is I believe Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself. That’s usually what gets a ban in Lemmy worldnews, and other radical hotbeds.
EDIT: sorry, missed your other point. That’s because the anti-Israel stance often becomes a pro-Hamas one. Their charter is the destruction of Israel and the Jews. Go to a Hamas rally in whatever country you’re in, there will be side-by-side marchers yelling everything from "gas the jews”, to “from the river to the sea” (also seen here in my community), to “destroy Israel”. Those things aren’t anti-Israel or even anti-war crimes. They are pro-Hamas support of their founding purpose.
Israel does have the right to defend itself but what they’re doing is not defense. If you lock up dogs in a cage and starve them, you don’t get to shoot a hundred dogs and claim self defense when one of them bites you.
As for their right to exist - I agree in theory but they straight up stole the land they established themselves on. Palestine has the right to exist, too, but it seems a lot of the world is turning a blind eye to the genocide that’s taking place
I am no stranger to the persecution that the Jewish people have endured for most of their history but that doesn’t give them the right to displace an entire country. I could not give less of a shit what anyone claims their God tells them.
I can do analogies:
Your neighbor across the street regularly shoots at your house, sometimes they even kill a member of your family. This goes on for literally decades, you try building a wall, you try bullet-proofing your house (read iron-dome), etc., you even try to have a two house solution talk from which the neighbor (Abbas) walks away from in 2008. After decades of this you build a wall, and the neighbors climbs it, and murder a huge group of your family while wearing a body cam and broadcasts it to the cheers of their household (UNRWA and Palestinians, sources available). Shit has to end, so you finally go into their house to take their guns, anyone whose fired those guns, etc.).
That’s what’s going on.
Israel has ignored tens of thousands of war crimes from the Palestinians (read, every single rocket attack meets the criteria of a war-crime), suicide bombers, just an endless parade of intentionally targeting civilians with terrorist attacks by the elected government of Gaza (who has majority support today and would win an election today in Gaza AND the West Bank–unseating Abbas).
There is an obligation to defend the citizens of their country. What they’re doing is defensive. They’ve tried everything else for decades and I’ve yet to hear a realistic alternative to the current campaign. They’ve done massive damage to Hamas’ infrastructure, destroyed much of the tunnel systems in the secured areas, interrupted supply lines, killed commanders, gathered intelligence, just the other day they destroyed 100 rocket launchers. You know that 20k+ dead figure that comes literally from Hamas. Well, it includes ~8,500 Hamas terrorists, and ~1,000 terrorists from various other groups that shelter behind civilians in Gaza.
Palestinians absolutely have a right to exist, and no Israel did not “straight up stole the land”, that’s super reductive and disingenuous. Israel agrees Palestinian Arabs have a right to exist too, that’s why they make up 21% of Israel’s citizens. The Palestinians have turned down a two-state solution FIVE times. And even before Israel was recognized, the Palestinian Jews agreed to 20% of the Palestine Mandate, while also agreeing to 80% of the Palestine Mandate go to the Palestinian Arabs. And again, that’s just one time the Arabs said no, and continued to do so.
It’s NOT a genocide, clearly.
There are war-crimes that have happened (many on both sides, I’ll condemn them any day). I’ll readily find common ground with you there. But Israel is not systematically exterminating 21% of its citizens, nor the West Bank, nor the millions of Palestinians in Jordan or Egypt, etc. Calling it a genocide diminishes and devalues the term. It does significant damage to a charge of genocide. Invoking genocide is just a politicisation and should not be tolerated. Israel is rightfully trying to prevent another body cam livestream of the Gaza Government murdering civilians at music festivals, and kibbutz, etc. They’re also trying to get back the infant and other hostages the terrorist government of Gaza has taken.
Also, check the history, the people of Gaza ELECTED Hamas on a platform of genocide. It’s literally their founding purpose: the destruction of Isreal and the Jews. That’s who still runs Gaza, that’s who has majority support in Gaza, that’s even who aid goes to in Gaza (which they then steal for anti-Israeli propaganda).
For your analogy to work, I would have had to have owned the house across the street until the neighbor claimed it for religious reasons. They would have also had to have taken all the houses on the block until we all lived together in a fraction of the space.
They have absolutely stolen the land. Look at how the borders have changed since the creation of Israel. Unless you’re implying that Palestinians were on board to be displaced. Or that it’s fine and normal for Israelis to build and expand into Palestinian land like they’ve been doing.
The citizens who voted Hamas into power are to blame but not all the current residents. Hamas is a dictatorship and outing them is impossible when both sides (Hamas and the Israeli government) are actively suppressing your ability to flourish. Are you gonna blame North Koreans for what their government does?
We’re 70 years past this excuse for terrorism, which I’ll happily debate with you separately if you want but it’s just a distraction from the truth, which is that Israel is defending itself, is not committing genocide, has a right to do so, and is a state recognized by the UN that is defending itself from terrorists. Trying to hinge the points you made on “stolen land“ leads to “this terrorism is okay because…”, I don’t think you’re making that argument–but if we debate it I can get there in an honest discussion.
Generations have come and gone now who have grown up in Israel and Gaza (also why there has to be a special, unique ONLY to Palestinians definition of refugee, otherwise there’d only be a couple hundred thousand Palestinian refugees left by the UNHRC definition that the rest of the world and people in the world fall under).
Also, for added nuance and because it’s directly related, read about the 900,000 Jews whose land was stolen and who were exiled post-48 as revenge by the Arab and Muslim countries, here’s a link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world
I’m extremely familiar with the creation of Israel, the Nakba, and even before that pre-Israel, and before that, including the fall of the Ottoman empire and earlier. I’m happy to debate with you about it. There’s plenty of ugly on both sides, even back then. And stealing land is a super reductive and dishonest claim. A half-truth to make a point doesn’t make that point valid.
This dictatorship is the most popular group among Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza. They have overwhelming majority support. If you held an election today, especially since they spiked in popularity with all the support from the residents on Oct 7th, they’d easily win re-election.
Almost three in four Palestinians believe the Oct. 7 attack by Hamas on Israel was correct, and the ensuing Gaza war has lifted support for the Islamist group both there and in the West Bank, a survey from a respected Palestinian polling institute found. The Palestinian Center for Policy Survey and Research (PCPSR) findings were published as international alarm grows over the spiralling Palestinian civilian toll in the Israeli counter-offensive against Hamas, now in its third month. Seventy-two percent of respondents said they believed the Hamas decision to launch the cross-border rampage in southern Israel was “correct” given its outcome so far, while 22% said it was “incorrect”. The remainder were undecided or gave no answer.
Ok, let’s forget about 70 years ago and talk about the illegal settlements Israelis have made on Palestinian land in recent history and the continued border expansion. That’s land theft unless you subscribe to Putin’s “it was Russia once so we’re taking it back” mentality.
It’s not self defense to bomb civilians, tell them to move, and then bomb their caravan to safety. It’s also not self defense to kill journalists.
Just to clarify, you want to legitimize and apologize for terrorism and targeting civilians over land claims, yes or no?