YouTube Shorts is throwing me in a rabbit hole of policeman seemingly overstepping the boundaries when stopping citizens for a routine check. The discussions often revolve around asking and not wanting to show their ID (“unless you can tell me what crime you accuse me of”). Is there a particular reason why they’re so hesitant to present their ID to the police officer? It only seems to escalate the situation. In Belgium I don’t see the harm in showing my ID when I’m stopping by a police officer. (added url as an example)
Is there a particular reason why they’re so hesitant to present their ID to the police officer?
If the officer is willing to violate your rights, what else might they do? Giving them your ID allows them to waste your time running your name through their system. The more time they spend with you, the more time they have to think of some bullshit justification for why they stopped you in the first place.
People die in police custody. People have been permanently maimed and tortured while under arrest.
Know your rights, and cede none of them without protest. They’re allowed to ask you to give up your rights, but they’re not allowed to take them from you. The law is on your side, even if the cops aren’t.
I know I posted this at the ‘the police problem’ community. But I thought that when pulled over by the police, giving your drivers licence, to show you’re allowed to drive, doesn’t do any harm. It’s common practice in Belgium to check if all your ‘papers’ are in order. And if so, you’re back on your way.
In America the police see themselves as apex predators of citizens. For the purposes of self preservation, it is critical a citizen recognize this reality and not be fooled. The police are trained to deceive. The police are allowed to lie to you. They are not your friend. They have chosen an adversarial role in society, any messaging to the contrary is part of their predatory behavior.
This is best illustrated by comparing what a police car looks like in America vs what a police car looks like in Belgium.
American police cars are increasing indistinctive. They are designed to catch you unaware and blend into the herd.
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To start: if you’re operating a vehicle, your right to refuse to id is pretty slim (they need a reasonable articulable suspicion usually, but there’s a chance they have one. Ask for it.).
That said… The laws on this vary state by state. Some states do have stop and id, others do not. Everyone would do well to know the laws for where they are, if they want to refuse id. Even as a motorist, they need a reason to stop you.
Where I am, they’d need to detain me before I’m required to id (as a pedestrian). I am not allowed to lie about my name, so answering, “Mickey Mouse” could technically give them the legal ammo to require real ID (full name, birth date). For a motor vehicle stop they are required to state why they stopped me as the conversation begins. None of this, “do you know why I pulled you over?” and other pretextual stuff.
Some people know their rights and exercise them. The police are supposed to respect those rights. When they do, nothing happens, the video isn’t click-worthy and it doesn’t get published. I think you’re seeing some selection bias.
Audit the audit, civil rights lawyer and other YT channels try to paint an accurate picture of our rights, how and when we can exercise them, and when the police go so far that someone gets paid.
I’ll add: the police having a policy of documenting every interaction, and including the name of the person, does not supercede any rights given by law. They get confused or angry sometimes, but as they’d tell us, ignorance of the law is no defense.
Edits: fixed autocorrect.
Thanks for this extensive explanation. I’ll be on a holiday in the USA with my family this summer. And kind of on a road trip between Washington and New York and back. With all the rights that I have … when asked for my ID … aren’t you just going to advise me to … … ?
The answers (as I understand them) :
If you’re a US citizen, it depends on the state or DC (assuming that’s what you meant by Washington).
If you aren’t a citizen, you don’t have as many rights. Now any law enforcement officer won’t know that you’re not a citizen (if you aren’t), but it’s easiest to just provide papers upon request.
I have never refused to ID, but I’ve only been asked due to legal reasons like speeding or I was near a border or at customs.
In short, go with the flow, don’t break the law, have fun, and enjoy your stay!
In Belgium
Section 1 of Article 34 of the WPA specifies that police officers may check someone’s identity when that person has committed a crime or intends to enter a space where there are concerns about potential public disorder. These are known as reactive identity checks in that officers react to an event that has already taken place. The same section also mentions proactive police checks. These are permitted “if they, on the grounds of that person’s behaviour, material clues or circumstances of place or time, have reasonable grounds to think that the person being searched has tried or is prepared to commit a crime or that he/she could disturb or has disturbed public order”.
You are required to carry your identity, which can be any document, and there are limited instances the police would stop you.
It’s the US, there is no expectation a person carries their ID unless they are driving, and there is a grab bag of conflicting requirements that basically mean, the more opportunity you hand them to extend the interaction, the more opportunity you give them to escalate. Ie, “defy a lawful order” or “resist arrest” when it’s not clear what the order is or that you are being arrested.
I love it…after the incompetent bitch cop says “have a great day sir” he tells her to go fuck herself
Yeah, nobody’s having a great day after getting the skin torn off their arms from aggressive handcuffing. ACAB.
Are Belgian police as dangerous as American police?
I don’t think of the Belgian police as being dangerous. But possibly because of the difference in amount of police officers (it seems to be 13.000 in Belgium, 900.000 in USA) you can report on more wrongdoings in the USA than in Belgium, but overall (per capita) the relative amount of incidents could compare? It can come over as naive but I just couldn’t understand what could go wrong by showing your ID.
In the American judicial system, there is an explicit presumption of innocence and equal application of the law. At least that’s what’s written in the US constitution.
In reality, law enforcement assumes everyone guilty of “something” and their pursuing investigation is far from equally applied. They also assume every person they interact with intends to commit violence.
Might I suggest the channel audit the audit. New video like this with detailed breakdowns every Monday
You technically don’t have to present your ID unless you’re being detained, and everyone wants to get all “MAH RIGHTS” when confronted and believing they’ve done nothing wrong.
It usually blows up in their face for sure
If by blows up in their face, you mean they get arrested and later get a nice payout for wrongful arrest.
If you can afford the representation and legal battle to prove wrongful arrest in the first place, then yeah
If it’s blatant and on video then the lawyers will come to you and probably only ask for a percentage of the settlement.
So your solution is to just let the police continue to harass people?
If the people have done nothing wrong then the cop should just fuck off and leave honest hardworking people alone.
Maybe the cops could learn a little on how to be honest or hardworking either one.
I didn’t say anything about a solution, and I agree that’s what the cop should do. That just ain’t what happens a lot of the time.
Lots of states do have “stop and ID” laws. So…
Example with the actual statute? Even Terry V Ohio doesn’t allow for identification. Just an external pat down if there is RAS. As shitty and unconstitutional as that ruling happens to be.
Roughly half of the US has these laws. Here’s Alabama for example.
Appreciate the reply. It is important to note that even those states require reasonable articulable suspicion of an actual crime and that the person is detained under such articulable suspicion. If you invoked your 4th and 5th amendment right even under those circumstances, they would have the burden to articulate in court the specific crime and why they believed you were involved in that crime. Stop and ID is a bit misleading as it still requires specific narrow suspicion that is tied to an actual crime and the person is detained under that context.
That’s true, but they have “qualified immunity” so there’s basically no consequences for them to just make shit up to get your ID anyway. When it’s their turn in front of the judge they’ll play the “glassy/bloodshot eyes + odor of alcohol/weed” card, and the most you can really hope for is them getting suspended with pay.
It’s a bullshit RAS and everyone knows it, but it gets them past the “reasonable” part of “unreasonable search and seizure” so no 4th amendment rights are technically violated and it’s practically impossible to prove otherwise. Until bodycams can capture smell, there’s really no way around it.
You’d be risking a misdemeanor charge, jail time, and time/energy/money spent on dealing with court just to avoid a small inconvenience. And refusing to ID in those states is basically begging them to search your car too, so despite how blatantly unjust it is, it’s really not worth it.
