“The approach we were told to take is that Kirk really had to be the one to lead everyone. […] Not necessarily that he had to actually have the idea to do something, but it had to appear as if he has the idea.”

Krikes recalled how illogical the mandate was, and how, when you watch the film, you can see how Kirk has been arbitrarily inserted into various scenes where he doesn’t belong. For example, there’s a scene near the end of the movie in which Spock (Nimoy) has a conversation with his father Sarek (Mark Lenard). Kirk is present in the background, watching the conversation. There is no reason for him to be there. But, golly, that’s what Paramount wanted.

“I think the perfect example in the movie is when Spock goes into the belly of the Bird of Prey to use the computers and learns that the sound is whale songs. It’s Kirk who has the idea to go back through time, although Spock is the one who plants the suggestion in Kirk’s mind. Kirk verbalizes it, and that’s the way it had to be played. We were told Bill had to be the leader at all times. In that scene, if you’re reading it, you say, ‘It’s Spock’s idea,’ but on film, Spock’s discovery that it’s humpback whales is not as important as Kirk’s idea of going to get them.”

  • Semi-Hemi-Demigod
    link
    fedilink
    182 months ago

    Imagine how much better early Trek would have been without Shatner Shatnering up everything.

    Just watch the documentary “The Captains” to see why.

  • AwkwardLookMonkeyPuppet
    link
    English
    72 months ago

    It kinda makes sense that Kirk is there while Spock talks to his dad. Kirk is his best friend after all. It also makes sense that people present him with information and he makes the decisions. That’s how the chain of command works. He’s the Captain of the flagship of the Federation. He’s the decision maker. He bears the responsibility for their actions, so he decides what those actions will be.

  • Flying SquidOPM
    link
    62 months ago

    While I’m criticizing Star Trek IV, where’s the transparent aluminum, guys?

    • @ricdeh
      link
      English
      362 months ago

      the whole thing is bad.

      Very hard disagree from me. I find it to be one of the most fun Star Trek movies, and by the metrics, most fans agree. This is the first time that I encounter someone that suggests that Star Trek IV would be unpopular.

        • TubeTalkerX
          link
          fedilink
          52 months ago

          That had to, ILM was busy with Ghostbusters 2 and Indiana Jones 3, they couldn’t do it. At that time if it wasn’t ILM then it was sub-standard.

        • @grue
          link
          English
          32 months ago

          Understandable, have a nice day.

    • Flying SquidOPM
      link
      11
      edit-2
      2 months ago

      I really enjoy the movie despite the problems, but it does have huge problems. And thankfully some of the stuff (no swearing in the 23rd century) has been retconned.

      Edit: Since I already opened this can of worms, my biggest problem with ST IV, by far, is that Kirk and his crew have major difficulties adapting to 1980s Earth when not only do they not have that difficulty when on clandestine missions on entirely alien planets, Kirk and Spock do not seem to have a problem adapting to 1930s Earth in City on the Edge of Forever.

      It kind of makes them seem inept and it bothers me.

      • @[email protected]
        link
        fedilink
        English
        212 months ago

        My head canon attributes the crew’s poor adaptability to the 1980s to having made the trip in a Klingon bird of prey, which almost certainly would not have had good historical data about 20th century Earth. No data, no “here’s how to act” briefing.

        But credit to Kirk for having “double dumbass on you!” at the ready. Absolutely devastating.

        • Flying SquidOPM
          link
          52 months ago

          That would work except that Kirk and Spock went back to the 1930s with no data whatsoever and still adapted quickly.

          • gregorum
            link
            fedilink
            English
            22 months ago

            Didn’t they have that historian with them? I believe he got shot not long into the mission, but they did go down to the planet with a historian who knew about the 1930s and gangsters.

            • Flying SquidOPM
              link
              82 months ago

              You’re thinking of A Piece of the Action. In City on the Edge of Forever, McCoy goes through the Guardian of Forever and Kirk and Spock go through after him. All three adapt just fine, including McCoy, who is also insane.

              • gregorum
                link
                fedilink
                English
                3
                edit-2
                2 months ago

                No, what I’m thinking of was a season 2 TNG episode where a historian goes onto the holodeck into one of Picard’s Dixon Hill holonovels, and he gets shot and dies.

                ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

                • Flying SquidOPM
                  link
                  4
                  edit-2
                  2 months ago

                  Fair enough. I was just guessing to be honest since you were thinking 1930s episode. I haven’t seen A Piece of the Action in years. Other than the fun part where Kirk teaches the two thugs Fizzbin and the concept of cultural contamination being a reason for the Prime Directive, it’s a really stupid episode.

                  Edit: also the planet modeled itself on a book about Chicago mobs of the 1920s, not the 1930s. Oops. Must have been a really detailed book.

      • @[email protected]
        link
        fedilink
        32 months ago

        no swearing in the 23rd century

        I always took that to mean that the concept of a forbidden word had lost all meaning in the future post-scarcity society with strong civil rights.

        So, in my head-canon, people in the future who do curse, do so as an academic hobby.

        They’ve actively studied what combinations of words would have caused alarm in a chosen century of history, and then use those words. Anyone who reacts to the fact that they’re cursing, in my head-canon, is reacting to the fact that they clearly intended to curse, having studied how to do so, and were looking for a reaction.

        • Flying SquidOPM
          link
          32 months ago

          I suppose, but it’s not presented that way in the dialogue:

          SPOCK: Admiral, may I ask you a question?

          KIRK: Spock, don’t call me Admiral. …You used to call me Jim. Don’t you remember? Jim. …What’s your question?

          SPOCK: Your use of language has altered since our arrival. It is currently laced with, …shall I say, …more colourful metaphors. ‘Double dumb ass on you’ …and so forth.

          KIRK: You mean profanity. That’s simply the way they talk here. Nobody pays any attention to you if you don’t swear every other word. You’ll find it in all the literature of the period.

          SPOCK: For example?

          KIRK: Oh, the collective works of Jacqueline Susann. The novels of Harold Robbins.

          SPOCK: Ah! …‘The giants’.

          (Sorry about the bad transcript, it was the first one I could find.)

          I wouldn’t exactly call either Jaqueline Susann or Harold Robins to be examples of authors known to have excessive swearing in their books. The problem is that the punchline doesn’t work unless it’s those sort of authors and not authors of the time who did have extremely sweary books, like John Irving. So it makes it sound like everyone in the 23rd century is a prude who basically doesn’t swear.

          And Kirk not understanding how ‘dumbass’ worked kind of cemented that in.

          • @[email protected]
            link
            fedilink
            52 months ago

            In my head-canon, it’s boredom, not prudishness, that caused swearing to die out.

            Almost no one in the future swears because it’s not any fun anymore, because almost no one else cares.

            This allows for i.e. Mariner being intentionally fluent in 20th century swears, and command crew around Mariner reacting - not because anyone cares in the 24th century about those words, but only because they know Mariner explicitly intentionally chose those words to cause annoyance.

            It also allows Kirk, another academically minded rebel, to have some poorly researched idea how to swear in the 29th century, while Spock is genuinely confused at encountering a long dead way of speaking.

            • Flying SquidOPM
              link
              4
              edit-2
              2 months ago

              Yeah, but it didn’t die out. Not just Mariner and T’Ana swear. There’s plenty of swearing in Discovery and SNW. It’s been retconned and rightly so.

              Edit: And Raffi swears in Picard as well. And then there’s Data’s “oh shit” when the Enterprise crashes in Generations. Plus, you know McCoy swore as much as T’Ana did, they just couldn’t broadcast it.

              • @[email protected]
                link
                fedilink
                3
                edit-2
                2 months ago

                Yeah. Bones absolutely was meant to swear like a sailor, and couldn’t get out part the censors.

                This all still fits my head-canon, in case it helps you enjoy Trek IV more.

                In my head canon, It’s not that swearing died out. What died off is any particular words being exceptional or able to cause offense.

                Spock is confused in the 20th century, because the angry man expected a reaction to his swearing.

                A typical angry 24th century person wouldn’t waste their energy adding swears when truly angry, because the swears don’t bring any additional reaction.

                We do see some evidence of this in other Trek - 24th century people (at least federation officers) are often shown to get very articulate, when angry.

                So I attribute Spock’s confusion to encountering a 20th century person who became less articulate, when angered. Then Kirk has to try to explain that the selected (less specific) words carry 20th century cultural significance.

                • Flying SquidOPM
                  link
                  22 months ago

                  Except, again, people swear when angry in Discovery, SNW, Lower Decks and Picard.

      • @[email protected]
        link
        fedilink
        22 months ago

        If you have fun watching it, then go for it. The whole Shatner focused thing makes a lot of sense. He would setup shots in minutes instead of the industry norm of hours just for that focus.

        • Flying SquidOPM
          link
          102 months ago

          You’re thinking of Star Trek V, which Shatner directed and is, indeed, a stinker of a film.

          This is Star Trek IV- the one with the whales. Most people consider it one of the best Star Trek films despite its flaws.

          • ares35
            link
            fedilink
            42 months ago

            star trek iv and v is what firmly cemented the idea that the even numbered trek films were better.

            • Flying SquidOPM
              link
              32 months ago

              Although you wouldn’t believe how many Star Trek V defenders I have met over the years. Which is why, I assume, Sybok got a mention in SNW.

              • @kaitco
                link
                12 months ago

                How do they defend it?

                I’m generally curious about what they liked about it and how they frame it.

                • @[email protected]
                  link
                  fedilink
                  32 months ago

                  I’ll give it a go:

                  I like that it’s about exploration. Even if it’s Sybok forcing the expedition to begin with, Kirk does ultimately make the choice to go along with it. No other Trek movie is actually about seeking out a strange new world.

                  I like the shore leave scenes. I hear a lot of complaints about them, but I appreciate spending a little time with the our characters just being dysfunctional friends.

                  I like that it makes full use of DeForest Kelley. His “pain” scene is excellent, and his frequent exasperation with Kirk is sold very well throughout the film. Say what you will about Shatner’s ego, but he gets that Kirk can be a petulant child at times, and needs McCoy to verbally smack some sense into him, as in the brig scene.

                  For that matter, I like Kirk’s pain speech. A little sermonising, maybe, but that’s Trek for you. It works well enough considering that two films ago this man was forced to abandon his estranged son’s corpse on an exploding planet. Insisting on holding on to that pain is substantial, but very Kirk.

                  I enjoy the entire meeting with God. A little goofy, but terrifically quotable.

                  I do see plenty of faults. A lot of the humour doesn’t land. Introducing our new hero ship as a piece of junk is immediately off-putting. The Scotty/Uhura pairing comes out of nowhere and ultimately goes nowhere. The ground assault sequence was disappointingly underwhelming. The effects are weak af, and if I saw it on release in theatres I’d probably feel pretty sour towards the apparent trajectory of the series towards something that felt more direct-to-video.

                  But I never have a bad time watching it. The good outweighs the bad for me.

                • Flying SquidOPM
                  link
                  12 months ago

                  A lot of them like the religious criticism (which I think is heavily watered down by that alien not being the mythical god of either Vulcan or Earth), they liked the idea of a Vulcan pro-emotions cult, and I’m sure some of them like pew pew space battle with the Klingons.

            • Flying SquidOPM
              link
              32 months ago

              Happens to the best of us. The fact that there are six TOS movies alone doesn’t help.

    • @aeronmelon
      link
      82 months ago

      a sub par visual effects studio

      You mean Industrial Light & Magic??

      Perhaps you’re thinking of Star Trek V.