Isn’t this the guy who called everyone in the military suckers and losers?
He also dodged the draft
Can we start with Trump having to finally serve?
Conservatives love this idea, to the point that they don’t even bother thinking about who is going to pay for it. If you did mandatory service for people 18-20 the armed forces would be roughly 20 times larger than it is now in terms of personnel, 10 times larger if it were mandatory for men only. Military spending is nearly 1/4 of the total budget as-is, where is the funding going to come from if you have 10 or 20 times as many people to arm and train?
And what the fuck are you going to have them all do? They’re just gonna bum around and fuck for two years and then go get free degrees on the GI bill, driving up the cost even further.
Truly, the party of fiscal responsibility.
tbf a lot of military budget is on R&D and equipment, training is only a tiny fraction of it. Just compare the spending and the personnel with China.
I don’t think it’s tiny enough that you could multiply it by 20 and still call it tiny.
Forcing YOUR Children to die so a Billionaire can make more money is called FREEDOM you STUPID LIBRULS!
Lmao fuckin try it
We should bring it back in Canada, just in case we need to go burn the white house down once again if Trump is elected.
Counter offer: remove the Selective Service and constitutionally ban the draft.
In the LP National Convention, he claimed to be a libertarian. So prove it.
Trump finna turn the masses against the military and the military against the state. Fascists are so good at shooting themselves in the foot.
I don’t think the actual act of serving is all that bad, it becomes less serious when everyone has to do it, however it does go against principles of the country and truly being free. The US has one of the best and largest all volunteer military and that should be something to celebrate, not be moan.
That being said we celebrate that all the damn time, probably a little too much, honestly.
It’s not exactly “voluntary” when the socio-economic system is designed to leave a large portion of the population with military enlistment as the only fiscally safe means of obtaining a higher education, which is the only route to gainful employment, which is the only path out of abject poverty.
Make higher education free for everyone and then let’s see how many high quality volunteers we get for the armed forces.
Yeah I mean, I get that, but that’s not what I meant. I appreciate the message for those that might not understand our economy isn’t ideal.
We pour a ton of money into the military, making it a very viable way to cross economic levels.
Nah, hell be forced to work for $1/hr in prison
I actually kinda support a mandatory civil service? Hear me out.
First, while I think structuring it like the military makes sense from an organizational standpoint, I think the focus would be on civil works projects. Maintaining national parks, infrastructure projects like federal interstate system improvements, etc.
This would serve as a way to get a big influx of money and labor into these large scale infrastructure projects in a way that’s bipartisan. The Republicans would like it because it’s cheap and they support mandatory military service. The Democrats would like it because it’s a big public works project that creates jobs and builds out infrastructure.
I think it would also be a unifier and help build a sense of national identity and break people out of their insular bubbles. They say travel is the antidote to bigotry. This would get people from all parts of this nation travelling around and intermingling. The son of a clansman from Arkansas would be exposed to, and have to work closely with, queer people from SoCal. The young gang member from Detroit would be able to get away for a few years and perhaps reinvent themselves. The son of the billionaire will have to work hand and hand and side by side with the kid raised penniless in the foster system.
It gives people a precious few years after highschool to see the nation and not have to make huge decisions about their future careers at 16 years old. It can expose them to different fields of work, and teach them skill to best prepare them for their futures.
All in all, I think a system like this could do a lot of good, both for the people in it, and for our nations failing public works.
I disagree. If you compel people to do a thing, that thing will get done poorly, if it gets done at all.
I think we should do the opposite: ban the draft and immediately end the Selective Service. If we get attacked, people will sign up to defend their homes. If it pays well, people won’t wait until we’re attacked to sign up.
Here’s my counter offer: if you volunteer for your local National Guard, you get:
- education assistance consistent with a well-paying job (say, $15-20/hr)
- in-state tuition (if you’re coming from out of state)
- health insurance, depending on the hours donated
- housing (on-base, deducted from the education “pay” if needed)
You’d be assigned tasks consistent with your ability, such as cleaning national and state parks, wildfire fighting assistance (not front-line, but supply lines), etc. But everything is on a volunteer basis, and you can quit at any time.
I also think all high school students should be trained on basic firearm safety and use. If they need to fight, they should at least know how guns work on a basic level. But conscription should never be tolerated.
I mean, I still prefer my pitch to yours, but I wouldn’t be sad with your idea either.
I don’t think your pitch really combats the “people won’t actually want to do the work” issue. I think in either example you’ll have a lot of people who are “just here so I don’t get fined,” as it were.
But I think you’re overstating that issue in either case. Will it have that issue, sure. But so does the military writ large. Does it impact efficiency, sure. But making an efficient, well oiled machine isn’t exactly the point.
But other than that, reading your proposal again, I kinda think that the only thing that makes your proposal different from mine is the mandatory nature of the service.
The benefits you outlined are commensurate with the lower enlisted ranks in the military, so like, yeah, that’s what I’m proposing I guess.
I think the benefits of forcing people to leave their bubbles justifies the forced nature of mandatory service. It a means of helping young people escape cycles of abuse, and exposing them to other cultures. It’s also a great equalizer, in that it effects poor and rich alike, where your system ends up just admitting poor people who are desperate (not unlike the military as it stands.)
I’d also be open to having a program option where you can defer up to 5yrs to pursue a college degree if it’s in a relevant field (civil engineering, etc) and do your mandatory service afterwards utilizing those skills. The program still pays for that college time but gets relevant use out of you at the end. This prevents people who know what they want to do from having to delay and gives them relevant job experience right out of the gate as a resume builder.
I kinda think that the only thing that makes your proposal different from mine is the mandatory nature of the service.
Exactly, and that’s critical for me.
My SO is from a country with forced military service, and it’s the only reason why my children don’t have citizenship in that country. I will not force them to serve in the military, I think that’s unethical and I refused to do it. If the US called a draft that would impact my kids, I’d help them leave the country if they didn’t want to serve. I will not stand for conscription in any form, even if it’s for a “noble” purpose.
That said, I like the general idea of serving in a structured environment like the National Guard, and I considered joining some years back, but didn’t because I thought it would impact my time with my family. As long as it’s voluntary, I’m 100% on board with expanding that program.
What about it being mandated makes it unethical?
Is it the “military” part of it? Cause I think that neither of us are proposing this as a “fight and die” thing.
If it’s just the mandate in general, would you say taxes are unethical? It’s the government taking a portion of the fruits of your labor for civic gain.
Is mandatory schooling unethical? It’s the government mandating what you do with your life in large part between the ages of 6 and 17.
I just fail to see what makes this meaningfully different from any number of things that we already happily accept.
Yes, it’s the mandate in general.
taxes
Yes, to an extent. I find capitation/poll taxes especially unethical because they’re unavoidable.
But most are avoidable, or at least structured in a way that targets heavier users of services (esp. vehicle and gas taxes). In a sense, I’m consenting to the tax by participating in the taxed activity, like income tax for earning income, or sales tax for buying/selling stuff, so it’s not as bad as a completely non-voluntary tax. I find some taxes more distasteful than others, and the reasoning comes down to how reasonable avoidance is (e.g. income tax is impractical to avoid because even income from illegal activity is taxable).
That said, taxes are vastly preferable to forced labor because I can choose how to earn money to pay the tax, so my liberty is in-tact. Forced labor limits my basic freedoms, and to me that is unacceptable without consent. Being “military” makes it worse because they could theoretically be forced to fight, but any form of forced labor is unethical in my mind (including prison labor, unless it’s voluntary).
Is mandatory schooling unethical?
Mandatory public schooling is unethical. If parents can choose how their child is educated (home school, private school, etc) and the children only need to pass certain tests to prove proficiency, then I’m fine with it. But forcing someone to be in a classroom all day is unethical. Requirements are fine, but people need to be free in how they meet them.
I feel the same way about forced vaccinations, mask mandates, etc. I’m fine with vaccinations or masks being required for certain voluntary activities (e.g. attending a concert), but I’m absolutely against it for required activities (e.g. if you force children to attend public school, they cannot be forced to wear a mask or be vaccinated).
To be clear, my whole family is fully vaccinated (we all love vaccines), and we all wore masks in public and often in private, even when not required, when COVID-19 recommendations were in place. We think both are absolutely great ideas. But my state never had any form of vaccine or mask mandates for the general public (certain health personnel did have requirements IIRC), and kids were allowed to return to school or do remote learning in fall 2020 (schools were closed in March 2020 until the end of the school year until better data was available). I think that was the right call. The only times I showed my vax card were for boosters and crossing the border to Canada.
That’s my take. In a free society, everything should be voluntary.
