On the sexual assault thing. There are more cases of prison guards sexually assaulting and raping prisoners than there are trans people. There are more cases of female prisoners assaulting other female prisoners than trans women assaulting female prisoners. The regularity of rape in mens prisons are so laughably common that its become a cultural cornerstone.
Trans women might rape other women in jail, yes. Rape is a problem, but if you definitely want to ensure that rape will occur you put the trans women in mens prisons.
JK Rowling and the TERF Brigade does not care about rape in prisons. They care about trans women and want them to be raped or murdered in mens prisons. Pretending that they want anything else is dishonest.
The pieces of corn in the pile of shit is technically still food but we flush it all the same.
If we treat rape as a general problem in prisons we will solve the trans women problem as a side effect because will have made the prison a safer space for everyone. Singling out trans women rapes as a unique and unnatural problem is just bigotry and we don’t accept bigoted framings of other societal problems.
It isn’t that nobody wants to pay for prisoners, but more that the country is full of puritan Calvinist predestination believers. They think something like, “everyone in prison is bad or evil (you can tell because they are in prison), so they deserve whatever happens. I, my friends, and my family will never go to prison because we are good.”
These are not equivalent, though, so no it isn’t a good point. Rowling refuses to accept - as this analogy goes to show quite clearly - that trans women aren’t just mimicking women to caricature them. Blackface is all about caricature, nobody wearing it is trying to “pass”. Trans women aren’t a caricature, period dot.
Blackface isn’t always about caricature, we see this most frequently in Hollywood, but it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve seen a white person wearing dreadlocks or even a traditional Nigerian outfit.
That’s just a person who likes Nigerian culture, it’s not someone claiming that they are Nigerian.
Blackface itself is a little rarer, but being tanned to look like someone from the Mediterranean is still very popular
That’s just adjusting your skin tone for fashion. If i asked someone getting a tan what they were doing they wouldn’t say “I’m becoming Greek”.
likewise White-face is an entire make-up industry with various skin lightening products. It’s okay to want to make yourself look white but woe betide anyone wants to actually look black, nope, must be a caricature.
Because the cultures whom do that aren’t mimicing a different ethnicity, but attempting to lighten their skin because in their own culture light skin typically meant you didn’t labour outside.
What do you do if a white kid wants to be a dark elf at a party? Same goes for cosplayers.
Yes, culture identity is the same as playing a fictional game?..
The point Rowling was making, well okay, if it’s not acceptable under any circumstances to attempt to change your race, even if you ‘feel’ like that race, then why is it acceptable to change the gender.
Because the systemic nature of sexism and racism are completely different. You cannot change your “race” because that particular social construct involves actual shared lived experiences particular to each society. Part of belonging to that particular culture is that shared experience. There is no common shared experience that includes every woman in every society. Women of different societies have vastly different shared life experiences depending on their individual cultures.
good faith matters and blackface isn’t always caricature
Blackface is definitionally always a caricature…
“Blackface is the practice of non-black performers using burnt cork or theatrical makeup to portray a caricature of black people on stage or in entertainment”
Engaging in black America’s culture, or enjoying African culture is not blackface. The fact that you are conflating the two is either very ignorant, or intentionally racist.
Yeah, I can’t tell if that person was intentionally trying to muddy the waters, or if they were really that ignorant. Lemmy seems to be full of oddly specific radicals.
I think, since they deleted their comments instead of arguing, they were just ignorant of the nuances. It’s getting real hard to give the benefit of the doubt nowadays but I think they deserve it here. At least, I’m not going to block them.
Not a particularly good point. Just because gender and race are both social constructs doesn’t mean that both run on the same ruleset. Women and men exist as social categories in all cultures and trans people are seen across cultures existing even when the idea of trans people is buried and obfuscated. In reality there is no %100 male or female body. Our bodies are all mutable holding different measures of the same horomones, the organs are basically just inversions of each other and male and female are just sliding scales of intersexual potentialities. Trans people in many instances aren’t just looking for just a skin deep social category change. If it were a possibility a lot of trans people want to be able to have the full biological function of the category including the ability to birth children. While gender is performative transness is not strictly all about affect. Gender performativity as described by a few genderpunk philosophers does not well explain the full phenomenon of transness.
“Cross racial transness” if it exists in good faith at all, is pretty bloody rare. The likes of Oli London have found their way into the feeds of the anti-trans pipeline where they have used their experience to try and make gender performativity and trans people look like made up bullshit. As a community this has been used as a cudgel against both trans people and POC. Catch all rules for every instance of social construct does not exist - each one is unique and the negotiations are complex.
actually a fairly solid point and calls out the general hypocrisy. Just because someone paints themselves black and heck calls themselves black and wants to be part of the black community, doesn’t make them racist.
I think this up for semantic dispute. While they may not be definitionally racist, they are still partaking in a well known institution of racism. Also, the interpretation of action is more important to determine if something is racist than the person’s intent. It doesn’t matter if they didn’t mean to hurt people’s feelings if their actions do in fact cause people to be upset.
I think the issue stems from the fact that black Americans have a fairly unified history of institutional racism that isn’t present in something as vague as gender. Have women been historically oppressed in America? Of course, but that discrimination was not measured out consistently throughout different cultural groups.
Rowlings is trying to frame gender identity as something as codified as cultural identity, when that’s simply a false conflation. She seems to be crowning herself a representative of all “real” women, as if women throughout history have experienced institutionalized sexism equally.
Imo she is of the same league as “feminist” who fought for suffrage in South Africa in the 30’s, the ones who were perfectly happy with black women not being able to vote until the 90’s, because they didn’t represent the idea of what a woman was to the people in power.
don’t think “being upset” should be the bar to determine whether something is racist. I could get upset because someone has decided to put their hair up in a ponytail or something equally silly, this should not give me the right to lock someone up…
I did specify people, not person. I very much doubt there’s going to be several members of the public that would be disturbed by the pony tail scenario.
My point was that the person doing the actions that may be interpreted as racist, aren’t the person who gets to decide if their actions were racist or not. That is up to the group of people interpreting the actions.
Also, I don’t mention prison at all?
So there has to be some kind of intent or even awareness that they might be offending lots of people… an example of this might be wearing coal black face paint with bright red lipstick… otherwise someone who chose the wrong skin tone makeup might have a legal battle on their hands.
You don’t have to have awareness or intent to participate in racism. I don’t know why you are interpreting this as if it was a legal issue rather than pertaining to human decency?
If you somehow “accidentally” wore enough makeup to look like you were casted in a minstrel show, I’m sure someone would question your actions. If you somehow actually had no idea about the racism implicit in your actions…once informed, any decent person would change their behavior.
I think you are giving a bit too much benefit of doubt to this idea that it’s easy to accidentally get mistaken for a racist.
I have similar concerns about “cultural appropriation” as well. Besides, if you’re making an honest effort to integrate into that community or accept that community… should you be punished for it?
There’s a difference between integrating with a community and claiming that you are a different ethnicity. I don’t think that has much to do with cultural appropriation.
The reason I mention prison, is because when someone is convicted of racism, that’s generally what happens. Depending on your country blackface can land you in prison.
I think that’s quite pedantic, there are very few countries where racism alone will land you in legal troubles, let alone in jail.
Even if we examine the countries where it is punishable by prison time, I doubt the citizens of those countries would “accidentally” dress in black face, and I doubt you could provide me with one incident of someone ending up in jail for “accidental” racism.
Legal issues are Human Decency issues boiled down.
Unquestionably untrue. Legality has no historic basis in morality or ethics, it’s simply a means to control/organize social hierarchy.
I think you do have to have intent or some awareness to be racist. Whether you recognize that as racism or not is a different matter.
Your argument is semantic in nature. What’s the difference between being a racist and participating in racism? If you are against desegregation because it would negatively your property value, are you a racist? Well what would you typically call someone who is vehemently opposing desegregation?
Is it human decency to want to emulate what you like? I think it is. So I don’t mind people wanting to change the color of their skin if that’s what they want to do.
Because culture and ethnicity is not just about the color of your skin, It’s a shared history of lived experiences. Even if you could genetically change the melanin content of your skin, you did not grow up being treated as a Black American, you did not experience the same institutional systemic racism as the minority group you are aping.
as much as I don’t mind them wanting to change their gender, if that’s what suits them, great.
Again, this is falsely conflating gender identity with ethnic identity. Women of different cultures have vastly different shared experiences than women of the same culture.
Since race is 100% a social construct much more so than Gender (the difference between the genes are stupidly small).
While race is a human construct, so is law, economics, and government. The implementation of these social constructs creates very real shared experiences that bond a community together in a unique way.
The ethnicity argument is largely one about cultural appropriation: You can’t have my skin color because you weren’t born with it, you’re actually another color, you don’t know what it means to be my skin color.
More like, you aren’t a part of my culture because my culture is in large part a result of systemic abuse over the color of my skin, and you have never shared that experience.
(Just replace skin color with gender).
Again, gender is not a culture, it’s part of of every culture.
You enjoy R&B, love black hair styles, love black skin tones, maybe you believe in your heart you were always black, go right ahead have at. I’m not going to judge you.
I think defining a culture down to pigmentation while ignoring the hundreds of years of systemic abuse is quite upsetting to most minority groups. It really sounds like youre supplementing your idea of your own ethnic identity onto others. Ethnicity tends to be less important to those whom are a part of the ruling ethnic majority, because you haven’t experienced what it’s like to be a minority. You don’t understand what it’s like when your ethnicity is how you are judged.
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On the sexual assault thing. There are more cases of prison guards sexually assaulting and raping prisoners than there are trans people. There are more cases of female prisoners assaulting other female prisoners than trans women assaulting female prisoners. The regularity of rape in mens prisons are so laughably common that its become a cultural cornerstone.
Trans women might rape other women in jail, yes. Rape is a problem, but if you definitely want to ensure that rape will occur you put the trans women in mens prisons.
JK Rowling and the TERF Brigade does not care about rape in prisons. They care about trans women and want them to be raped or murdered in mens prisons. Pretending that they want anything else is dishonest.
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The pieces of corn in the pile of shit is technically still food but we flush it all the same.
If we treat rape as a general problem in prisons we will solve the trans women problem as a side effect because will have made the prison a safer space for everyone. Singling out trans women rapes as a unique and unnatural problem is just bigotry and we don’t accept bigoted framings of other societal problems.
Seriously, what the fuck? How about no rapes in prisons instead of trying to decide who is ok to torture?
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It isn’t that nobody wants to pay for prisoners, but more that the country is full of puritan Calvinist predestination believers. They think something like, “everyone in prison is bad or evil (you can tell because they are in prison), so they deserve whatever happens. I, my friends, and my family will never go to prison because we are good.”
I really wish more people understood just how fickle the justice system can be…
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Don’t you think it’s inhumane to separate them from both genders?
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These are not equivalent, though, so no it isn’t a good point. Rowling refuses to accept - as this analogy goes to show quite clearly - that trans women aren’t just mimicking women to caricature them. Blackface is all about caricature, nobody wearing it is trying to “pass”. Trans women aren’t a caricature, period dot.
Well, Rachael dolezal did and got roasted for it, but yeah.
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That’s just a person who likes Nigerian culture, it’s not someone claiming that they are Nigerian.
That’s just adjusting your skin tone for fashion. If i asked someone getting a tan what they were doing they wouldn’t say “I’m becoming Greek”.
Because the cultures whom do that aren’t mimicing a different ethnicity, but attempting to lighten their skin because in their own culture light skin typically meant you didn’t labour outside.
Yes, culture identity is the same as playing a fictional game?..
Because the systemic nature of sexism and racism are completely different. You cannot change your “race” because that particular social construct involves actual shared lived experiences particular to each society. Part of belonging to that particular culture is that shared experience. There is no common shared experience that includes every woman in every society. Women of different societies have vastly different shared life experiences depending on their individual cultures.
Blackface is definitionally always a caricature…
“Blackface is the practice of non-black performers using burnt cork or theatrical makeup to portray a caricature of black people on stage or in entertainment”
Engaging in black America’s culture, or enjoying African culture is not blackface. The fact that you are conflating the two is either very ignorant, or intentionally racist.
Thank you - I’ve got a busy day on and I don’t think I’d have had time to break it down like this.
Yeah, I can’t tell if that person was intentionally trying to muddy the waters, or if they were really that ignorant. Lemmy seems to be full of oddly specific radicals.
I think, since they deleted their comments instead of arguing, they were just ignorant of the nuances. It’s getting real hard to give the benefit of the doubt nowadays but I think they deserve it here. At least, I’m not going to block them.
Not a particularly good point. Just because gender and race are both social constructs doesn’t mean that both run on the same ruleset. Women and men exist as social categories in all cultures and trans people are seen across cultures existing even when the idea of trans people is buried and obfuscated. In reality there is no %100 male or female body. Our bodies are all mutable holding different measures of the same horomones, the organs are basically just inversions of each other and male and female are just sliding scales of intersexual potentialities. Trans people in many instances aren’t just looking for just a skin deep social category change. If it were a possibility a lot of trans people want to be able to have the full biological function of the category including the ability to birth children. While gender is performative transness is not strictly all about affect. Gender performativity as described by a few genderpunk philosophers does not well explain the full phenomenon of transness.
“Cross racial transness” if it exists in good faith at all, is pretty bloody rare. The likes of Oli London have found their way into the feeds of the anti-trans pipeline where they have used their experience to try and make gender performativity and trans people look like made up bullshit. As a community this has been used as a cudgel against both trans people and POC. Catch all rules for every instance of social construct does not exist - each one is unique and the negotiations are complex.
What does it make you if you paint your face black to make fun of trans people?
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I think this up for semantic dispute. While they may not be definitionally racist, they are still partaking in a well known institution of racism. Also, the interpretation of action is more important to determine if something is racist than the person’s intent. It doesn’t matter if they didn’t mean to hurt people’s feelings if their actions do in fact cause people to be upset.
I think the issue stems from the fact that black Americans have a fairly unified history of institutional racism that isn’t present in something as vague as gender. Have women been historically oppressed in America? Of course, but that discrimination was not measured out consistently throughout different cultural groups.
Rowlings is trying to frame gender identity as something as codified as cultural identity, when that’s simply a false conflation. She seems to be crowning herself a representative of all “real” women, as if women throughout history have experienced institutionalized sexism equally.
Imo she is of the same league as “feminist” who fought for suffrage in South Africa in the 30’s, the ones who were perfectly happy with black women not being able to vote until the 90’s, because they didn’t represent the idea of what a woman was to the people in power.
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I did specify people, not person. I very much doubt there’s going to be several members of the public that would be disturbed by the pony tail scenario.
My point was that the person doing the actions that may be interpreted as racist, aren’t the person who gets to decide if their actions were racist or not. That is up to the group of people interpreting the actions.
Also, I don’t mention prison at all?
You don’t have to have awareness or intent to participate in racism. I don’t know why you are interpreting this as if it was a legal issue rather than pertaining to human decency?
If you somehow “accidentally” wore enough makeup to look like you were casted in a minstrel show, I’m sure someone would question your actions. If you somehow actually had no idea about the racism implicit in your actions…once informed, any decent person would change their behavior.
I think you are giving a bit too much benefit of doubt to this idea that it’s easy to accidentally get mistaken for a racist.
There’s a difference between integrating with a community and claiming that you are a different ethnicity. I don’t think that has much to do with cultural appropriation.
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I think that’s quite pedantic, there are very few countries where racism alone will land you in legal troubles, let alone in jail.
Even if we examine the countries where it is punishable by prison time, I doubt the citizens of those countries would “accidentally” dress in black face, and I doubt you could provide me with one incident of someone ending up in jail for “accidental” racism.
Unquestionably untrue. Legality has no historic basis in morality or ethics, it’s simply a means to control/organize social hierarchy.
Your argument is semantic in nature. What’s the difference between being a racist and participating in racism? If you are against desegregation because it would negatively your property value, are you a racist? Well what would you typically call someone who is vehemently opposing desegregation?
Because culture and ethnicity is not just about the color of your skin, It’s a shared history of lived experiences. Even if you could genetically change the melanin content of your skin, you did not grow up being treated as a Black American, you did not experience the same institutional systemic racism as the minority group you are aping.
Again, this is falsely conflating gender identity with ethnic identity. Women of different cultures have vastly different shared experiences than women of the same culture.
While race is a human construct, so is law, economics, and government. The implementation of these social constructs creates very real shared experiences that bond a community together in a unique way.
More like, you aren’t a part of my culture because my culture is in large part a result of systemic abuse over the color of my skin, and you have never shared that experience.
Again, gender is not a culture, it’s part of of every culture.
I think defining a culture down to pigmentation while ignoring the hundreds of years of systemic abuse is quite upsetting to most minority groups. It really sounds like youre supplementing your idea of your own ethnic identity onto others. Ethnicity tends to be less important to those whom are a part of the ruling ethnic majority, because you haven’t experienced what it’s like to be a minority. You don’t understand what it’s like when your ethnicity is how you are judged.