You can disagree, I just find it condescending that you seem to imply you see things others aren’t.
Okay, so it’s not punching left or silencing dissent if I disagree? Just want to get that clarified. You can call me condescending, that’s fine; I probably am.
As for Ukraine, what specifically are you asking? Do you think opposing US imperialism must mean I support Russia, or something? My “feeling” is that war is bad and unjustifiable. Violence is purely justified against oppressors. I believe in Nation’s right to self-determination.
Should the US send weapons to them? Or is that more imperialism? I am just curious; you brought up imperialism, so I’m curious what that means.
I want Socialism, and eventually, Communism. Worker ownership of the Means of Production. Democracy of, by, and for the Proletariat. Do you have any specific questions? We could be here all day otherwise and I am not sure there would be a point.
I’m just curious about what your viewpoint is. Not sure why that’s a problem when arguing back and forth with hostility wasn’t, but you can stop any time, if you don’t like it.
What’s a country which has implemented the model you’d like to see in the US? Or would this be the US doing it for the first time that it’s been implemented on a big scale in the way you’d like to see it implemented?
My point is that bringing up the stuff Biden has done, without intention to discuss it or any prior relevance to the conversation, is just sealioning.
As for sending US weapons or not, I fail to see how that relates to Imperialism. You’re being extremely dishonest right now, because you don’t actually have any points.
If the people of Ukraine want weapons, then sure. If the people of Ukraine don’t want weapons, then no. Like I said, whatever the people on the ground want, I support.
Sure, countries have had similar structures. None have been exactly what I want, so I’m not sure why giving an example is important or relevant. Every country is going to have a unique path to Socialism and then Communism.
You’re clearly fishing for a “gotcha!” Because you can’t actually argue any longer, lol.
You’re clearly fishing for a “gotcha!” Because you can’t actually argue any longer, lol.
I’m not into the idea of just “yes it is” “no it isn’t” 'yes it is" “no it isn’t.” It’s a waste of time. I feel like I understand your viewpoint on Biden at this point, and I’ve pretty much said what I had to say on my side. We don’t have to keep going back and forth until someone “wins.” If you want to call that me not being able to actually argue any longer, then sure.
I feel like we’ve arrived at the crux of me understanding the deeper seated issue, though, in that you just feel that any candidate who’s okay with capitalism is going to be the enemy, and we have to overthrow the capitalist system completely in order to make real progress. So anything short of that that Biden does is going to make him the enemy to you.
I don’t agree with that viewpoint either, but I don’t really understand the details of what you think on the deeper viewpoint side. So me asking where what you want has been implemented is, one, yes starting to tee up reasons why I might not think it’s realistic or why I might not agree. But, also, I’m genuinely just curious about the details of what you believe. Like if you said China is the model, or Cuba is the model, or it hasn’t really been implemented in the way you’d like to see it but X, Y, and Z are how it would be different this time in the US, then those are very different things which could all go under the heading of “Communist.”
Thank you for being the voice of reason here. The other person has no clue what they’re talking about and have just been hucking out buzz words and talking semantics without substance. Thanks again for being reasonable.
Alright, I’ll answer these, now that you’ve explained plainly what you’re actually looking for and why, rather than beating around the bush.
The United States is Imperialist. By this, I mean Late Stage Capitalist, whereby Capital has been exported to the global south to super-exploit for super-profits. This is a natural end point of Capitalism, Capitalists will seek new markets and manners to increase rates of profit as the overall tendency is toward the fall of the rate of profits. This fall is unavoidable as long as automation improves, so Imperialism is also unavoidable.
This Imperialism inflates living standards within the US by way of unequal exchange, which is the driving cause of fascism itself! As the working class benefits from this unequal exchange, much of the proletariat is turned against itself, rather than against the ruling class. It is in this manner that continuing Capitalism must be opposed.
If I were to vote for a party that best aligns with my interests, I would vote for PSL. However, I also believe that leftist change is impossible in the US via electoral manners as long as Imperialism continues to exist. That is why I am chiefly anti-sectarian. Building up a working class movment is the only way off of this trajectory. Electoralism is impossible because the parties in power must capitulate to the class with power to maintain their own, so the interests of Capitalists will always be supported first and foremost.
As for “the model,” I cannot claim to own the leftist movement. China as it stands now is both better than under the fascist KMT before the PRC, and yet also highly flawed. The same is true of Cuba, far better than under fascist Batista, but can also be better. Historical Materialism looks at history as a result of class conflicts, viewing it in this manner Cuba and China are moving forward, but have far to go as well.
For the US, the number one issue is eliminating Imperialism, as this is the method by which fascism gains hold and the third world brutally exploited. This can be accomplished only via outside worker pressure. If anarchism is leading the movement, then Anarchism I will support! If Marxism is leading the movement, then Marxism I will support! Currently, there is no unifying movement, except against genocide, so I will continue to advocate for solidarity and unity against Capitalism, rather than infighting.
I don’t think capitalism is as tied directly to imperialism as you’re saying here. The USSR was plenty imperial, and they were (nominally at least) Communist. There are also plenty of capitalist countries in the world that don’t have empires.
I think imperialism is mainly a function of power, and how the human beings who tend to gravitate to power and wield it, tend to operate. That can happen with or without capitalism or a US-style governmental system. I actually think, for all the terrible evils of US capitalism, that the US governmental system does a better than average job of reining it in. I think if it were any other country on earth that had the type of money and military power the US does right now, they’d be doing much much worse things than the (already pretty bad) things the US government and corporate system is doing with them.
Again, that’s not to say I disagree with you on reining in capitalism or American empire. On that part we’re fully on the same page, believe it or not. But I think the best way to do that is actually to preserve the US electoral and governmental system and overall position in the world (maybe with some major reforms e.g. on lobbying, media ownership, and the electoral system). I think simply tearing down the American empire is probably going to be a gateway to something much, much worse, because the whole problem all along wasn’t an “America problem,” it was just a general money and power problem that’s worldwide (or universal, as a function of how people and systems of power operate).
I actually think that if your primary goal is undoing American empire, you should be advocating for Trump, because him fucking things up to the point that the US loses its imperial position is a way more realistic way that might happen than anything that’s realistic as an “on purpose” outcome within American politics (electoral or otherwise).
But I also think that the new reality (both inside and outside the US) if that happened would be much, much worse than Biden or Hillary Clinton or Bush 2 or any of these already very bad outcomes we’ve been seeing so far.
Again, just my take on it, based on what you said.
The USSR was expansionist, but not Imperialist, as I have explained. Expansionism isn’t necessarily a good thing, but what I am referring to is the Imperialism as an end state of Capitalism. Again, this isn’t to say that Expansionism is good, but is a separate concept from what I am referring to as Imperialism, if that makes sense.
Imperialism as I described it is important not just because it is the right thing to do, but because as I demonstrated previously, it is the number one obstacle in enacting Leftist change.
Yes, there are plenty of Capitalist countries that have not yet developed to late stage Capitalism, ie Imperialism. Imperialism is a necessary consequence of highly developed Capitalism.
For your point on the US, it doesn’t need to be expansionist, after all. It’s not that the government does a good job of reigning expansionism in, it’s that the government does a fantastic job of facilitating the type of Imperialism I am describing, and expansionism is largely unnecessary for the US.
As for Trump, what you described is an Accelerationist take, which is fringe among Leftists. I personally am not an Accelerationist, as I believe sabotaging worker movements for the sake of building a larger worker movement off of “punishment” risks far more than necessary. While Trump would indeed weaken the Empire, and would likely result in a more unified left against Trump, the danger to leftists this directly would present is highly risky.
I guess I just don’t see a huge difference in level-of-evil between imperialism and expansionism. I get that they’re not the same thing but I think most of what I said could be applied to one or the other or to both and the point remains pretty much the same.
The difference is clear if you look at cause and effect, rather than the immediate moral consequences.
Imperialism is caused by declining Capitalism, exploits the less fortunate in the global south, creates the path for rising fascism, and prevents the move towards Socialism.
Imperialism is the method by which the US prevents or slows the third world from developing, and deradicalizes the workers of the US against overthrowing the Capitalist order. At the same time, it increases nationalism, which opens the gate for Fascism.
Trump is not a rare example of an exceptionally fascist person, rather, the material conditions within the US have pointed to allowing a fascist candidate to take power.
Are you familiar with Dialectical and Historical Materialist analysis?
The difference is clear if you look at cause and effect, rather than the immediate moral consequences.
Why wouldn’t the immediate moral consequences be the main thing to look at? Like I say, I see the difference. I don’t see that one or the other is, like, harmless, or not a bad thing.
Trump is not a rare example of an exceptionally fascist person, rather, the material conditions within the US have pointed to allowing a fascist candidate to take power.
Absolutely agree. We need to reform the explicitly normal-person-hostile policies that in ways that are honestly too numerous to even list out have created the space where Trump can flourish.
Are you familiar with Dialectical and Historical Materialist analysis?
Okay, so it’s not punching left or silencing dissent if I disagree? Just want to get that clarified. You can call me condescending, that’s fine; I probably am.
Should the US send weapons to them? Or is that more imperialism? I am just curious; you brought up imperialism, so I’m curious what that means.
I’m just curious about what your viewpoint is. Not sure why that’s a problem when arguing back and forth with hostility wasn’t, but you can stop any time, if you don’t like it.
What’s a country which has implemented the model you’d like to see in the US? Or would this be the US doing it for the first time that it’s been implemented on a big scale in the way you’d like to see it implemented?
My point is that bringing up the stuff Biden has done, without intention to discuss it or any prior relevance to the conversation, is just sealioning.
As for sending US weapons or not, I fail to see how that relates to Imperialism. You’re being extremely dishonest right now, because you don’t actually have any points.
If the people of Ukraine want weapons, then sure. If the people of Ukraine don’t want weapons, then no. Like I said, whatever the people on the ground want, I support.
Sure, countries have had similar structures. None have been exactly what I want, so I’m not sure why giving an example is important or relevant. Every country is going to have a unique path to Socialism and then Communism.
You’re clearly fishing for a “gotcha!” Because you can’t actually argue any longer, lol.
I’m not into the idea of just “yes it is” “no it isn’t” 'yes it is" “no it isn’t.” It’s a waste of time. I feel like I understand your viewpoint on Biden at this point, and I’ve pretty much said what I had to say on my side. We don’t have to keep going back and forth until someone “wins.” If you want to call that me not being able to actually argue any longer, then sure.
I feel like we’ve arrived at the crux of me understanding the deeper seated issue, though, in that you just feel that any candidate who’s okay with capitalism is going to be the enemy, and we have to overthrow the capitalist system completely in order to make real progress. So anything short of that that Biden does is going to make him the enemy to you.
I don’t agree with that viewpoint either, but I don’t really understand the details of what you think on the deeper viewpoint side. So me asking where what you want has been implemented is, one, yes starting to tee up reasons why I might not think it’s realistic or why I might not agree. But, also, I’m genuinely just curious about the details of what you believe. Like if you said China is the model, or Cuba is the model, or it hasn’t really been implemented in the way you’d like to see it but X, Y, and Z are how it would be different this time in the US, then those are very different things which could all go under the heading of “Communist.”
Thank you for being the voice of reason here. The other person has no clue what they’re talking about and have just been hucking out buzz words and talking semantics without substance. Thanks again for being reasonable.
Alright, I’ll answer these, now that you’ve explained plainly what you’re actually looking for and why, rather than beating around the bush.
The United States is Imperialist. By this, I mean Late Stage Capitalist, whereby Capital has been exported to the global south to super-exploit for super-profits. This is a natural end point of Capitalism, Capitalists will seek new markets and manners to increase rates of profit as the overall tendency is toward the fall of the rate of profits. This fall is unavoidable as long as automation improves, so Imperialism is also unavoidable.
This Imperialism inflates living standards within the US by way of unequal exchange, which is the driving cause of fascism itself! As the working class benefits from this unequal exchange, much of the proletariat is turned against itself, rather than against the ruling class. It is in this manner that continuing Capitalism must be opposed.
If I were to vote for a party that best aligns with my interests, I would vote for PSL. However, I also believe that leftist change is impossible in the US via electoral manners as long as Imperialism continues to exist. That is why I am chiefly anti-sectarian. Building up a working class movment is the only way off of this trajectory. Electoralism is impossible because the parties in power must capitulate to the class with power to maintain their own, so the interests of Capitalists will always be supported first and foremost.
As for “the model,” I cannot claim to own the leftist movement. China as it stands now is both better than under the fascist KMT before the PRC, and yet also highly flawed. The same is true of Cuba, far better than under fascist Batista, but can also be better. Historical Materialism looks at history as a result of class conflicts, viewing it in this manner Cuba and China are moving forward, but have far to go as well.
For the US, the number one issue is eliminating Imperialism, as this is the method by which fascism gains hold and the third world brutally exploited. This can be accomplished only via outside worker pressure. If anarchism is leading the movement, then Anarchism I will support! If Marxism is leading the movement, then Marxism I will support! Currently, there is no unifying movement, except against genocide, so I will continue to advocate for solidarity and unity against Capitalism, rather than infighting.
This is just my uneducated viewpoint on it:
I don’t think capitalism is as tied directly to imperialism as you’re saying here. The USSR was plenty imperial, and they were (nominally at least) Communist. There are also plenty of capitalist countries in the world that don’t have empires.
I think imperialism is mainly a function of power, and how the human beings who tend to gravitate to power and wield it, tend to operate. That can happen with or without capitalism or a US-style governmental system. I actually think, for all the terrible evils of US capitalism, that the US governmental system does a better than average job of reining it in. I think if it were any other country on earth that had the type of money and military power the US does right now, they’d be doing much much worse things than the (already pretty bad) things the US government and corporate system is doing with them.
Again, that’s not to say I disagree with you on reining in capitalism or American empire. On that part we’re fully on the same page, believe it or not. But I think the best way to do that is actually to preserve the US electoral and governmental system and overall position in the world (maybe with some major reforms e.g. on lobbying, media ownership, and the electoral system). I think simply tearing down the American empire is probably going to be a gateway to something much, much worse, because the whole problem all along wasn’t an “America problem,” it was just a general money and power problem that’s worldwide (or universal, as a function of how people and systems of power operate).
I actually think that if your primary goal is undoing American empire, you should be advocating for Trump, because him fucking things up to the point that the US loses its imperial position is a way more realistic way that might happen than anything that’s realistic as an “on purpose” outcome within American politics (electoral or otherwise).
But I also think that the new reality (both inside and outside the US) if that happened would be much, much worse than Biden or Hillary Clinton or Bush 2 or any of these already very bad outcomes we’ve been seeing so far.
Again, just my take on it, based on what you said.
The USSR was expansionist, but not Imperialist, as I have explained. Expansionism isn’t necessarily a good thing, but what I am referring to is the Imperialism as an end state of Capitalism. Again, this isn’t to say that Expansionism is good, but is a separate concept from what I am referring to as Imperialism, if that makes sense.
Imperialism as I described it is important not just because it is the right thing to do, but because as I demonstrated previously, it is the number one obstacle in enacting Leftist change.
Yes, there are plenty of Capitalist countries that have not yet developed to late stage Capitalism, ie Imperialism. Imperialism is a necessary consequence of highly developed Capitalism.
For your point on the US, it doesn’t need to be expansionist, after all. It’s not that the government does a good job of reigning expansionism in, it’s that the government does a fantastic job of facilitating the type of Imperialism I am describing, and expansionism is largely unnecessary for the US.
As for Trump, what you described is an Accelerationist take, which is fringe among Leftists. I personally am not an Accelerationist, as I believe sabotaging worker movements for the sake of building a larger worker movement off of “punishment” risks far more than necessary. While Trump would indeed weaken the Empire, and would likely result in a more unified left against Trump, the danger to leftists this directly would present is highly risky.
I guess I just don’t see a huge difference in level-of-evil between imperialism and expansionism. I get that they’re not the same thing but I think most of what I said could be applied to one or the other or to both and the point remains pretty much the same.
The difference is clear if you look at cause and effect, rather than the immediate moral consequences.
Imperialism is caused by declining Capitalism, exploits the less fortunate in the global south, creates the path for rising fascism, and prevents the move towards Socialism.
Imperialism is the method by which the US prevents or slows the third world from developing, and deradicalizes the workers of the US against overthrowing the Capitalist order. At the same time, it increases nationalism, which opens the gate for Fascism.
Trump is not a rare example of an exceptionally fascist person, rather, the material conditions within the US have pointed to allowing a fascist candidate to take power.
Are you familiar with Dialectical and Historical Materialist analysis?
Why wouldn’t the immediate moral consequences be the main thing to look at? Like I say, I see the difference. I don’t see that one or the other is, like, harmless, or not a bad thing.
Absolutely agree. We need to reform the explicitly normal-person-hostile policies that in ways that are honestly too numerous to even list out have created the space where Trump can flourish.
Not even slightly.