We have three choices; Biden, Trump, deliberate non-vote.
I won’t be helping the GOP get into power because there is no scenario in which I would vote for them. Whether Biden can or cannot convince enough people to vote for him would be entirely on Biden himself. That’s how democracy works; you convince people to vote for you and get into office – He has the power to stop supporting genocide, ultimately I can’t influence him to do that other than to communicate that I will withhold my vote. If I’m unwilling to follow through on that option then it’s an empty threat.
I’m not sure why it’s become so difficult for people to understand. You’re trying to persuade the wrong person here. Write a letter to Biden and your representatives, they’re the one in office not me. I’m just a voter who Biden seems confident he doesn’t need.
I’m not trying to persuade you about anything, you’ve obviously made up your mind that helping Trump get back into power is a choice you’re willing to make to maintain your moral high ground.
I’m trying to let anyone else reading this conversation that there is a choice this election between Biden or Trump (I don’t think deliberate non-vote has a chance of becoming president) and the real work is pushing the DNC to have young, smart and progressive candidates in the next primary.
I’m not voting for Trump. I’m offering my vote to the Democrats for the most minimal cost. Literally willing to forego pretty much every political and moral principle I have except putting my name on a genocide.
Non-vote isn’t just the only possible moral choice in this context, it’s also the maximal way to vote if the goal is to change the party politics like you claim to want to.
Withholding votes is pushing the DNC to allow young, smart progressive candidates, it is the only way that ever has a chance of happening. This is because they will never ever allow a progressive candidate to win a primary if their corporate pro-genocide candidates can win simply by doing the old pied piper trick. As long as pro-genocide candidates are electorally viable, they’ll continue to field them and they’ll continue to win because that’s who the party backs with funding and that’s who they tell their media arm to boost. Biden getting re-elected reinforces that cycle, it does not put us closer to disrupting it.
The strategy you’re insisting on has only resulted in democratic voters compromising on their principles more and more to the point where you’re now here trying to convince people to vote for someone funding a genocide. That’s how far from your purported goal your strategy has brought us.
there is a choice this election between Biden or Trump … and the real work is pushing the DNC to have young, smart and progressive candidates in the next primary.
Uh huh, just onnnnnne more corporate democrat and the slide towards fascism will start to reverse, right? Just one little genocide, it’s no big deal just some brown kids getting killed, just put your name on it this one time and then we pinky promise we’ll start being more progressive.
I know I know, neoliberals lost RvW through their utter negligence, but it’ll work this time if we just let the DNC take one last AIPAC check, then they’ll be satisfied and stop kneecapping progressive candidates. They totally won’t do the exact same play next election cycle and get the exact same kind of empty right-wing suit to face off against whatever alt-right freak they help the GOP dredge up out of a bog somewhere.
They’d never do that after we gave them everything they wanted and when we flinch every time they play chicken with our democracy.
Right? This time will be different, just be complicit on this one genocide.
Roe vs Wade was a lot to do with Trump’s Supreme Court nominees overturning it.
Mitch had a lot to do with that too, delaying nominations and rushing others so they could have more of their people on it.
I understand you don’t want Biden to win but it’s starting to sound more and more like you just want Trump to win to tear down the system and you’re not worried about all the innocent people who will be hurt by that.
Biden has done a lot of good too, if you can open your eyes and look.
No. Dems had the opportunity to make RvW law under Obama. They simply refused and used their super majority to force everyone to buy private insurance instead. We lost RvW because of establishment democrats and this naive belief from neoliberal voters that Dems will reform themselves “one day” if we just keep voting for their establishment picks and pretending Millenials and GenZ don’t exist. “Vote blue, no matter how beyond the pale the candidates behaviour and beliefs become because we will always make sure the other option is worse”
it’s starting to sound more and more like you just want Trump to win to tear down the system and you’re not worried about all the innocent people who will be hurt by that.
I am the people who will be hurt, I’m literally part of one of the first demographics the GOP will target. No one wants Trump to win but that fear for myself doesn’t stop me from staying true on my own moral limits and remaining focused on applying real pressure to reform dem party politics, because that’s literally the only viable path out of the situation Democrats have put us all in while they’ve been busy shoving corporate and Israeli cash up their asses.
We tried it your way for 40 years. It does not work. no amount of feeding the dem establishment will weaken them, only starving them will work. Yes, that is painful for all of us, but the other option is staying on the slow road to fascism.
The best someone can do when faced with two equally genocidal candidates is try to pressure the party that has the potential to produce non-genocidal candidates, and the only way to do that is through protest, boycott, striking and soliciting your representatives or, as a lost resort, witholding your vote to communicate clearly that pro-genocide candidates are unviable. Anything else is enabling.
You’re not mitigating anything by voting for Biden, he literally just gave Israel a billion in military aid and will do so again as soon as an opportunity presents itself. The only thing more he could be doing is literally sending in American soldiers to help with the killing.
I’d rather mitigate the immediate potential of halting of all US aid to Gaza by the Trump admin- but obviously empty ‘principles’ are more important to you than starving Palestinians.
Motherfucker please, the us already decided to withhold how many billions of unrwa?
Trump might stop giving them more, but let’s not pretend Mr. Cut off palestinian aid, shut down every ceasefire except one halfass one, continually reject every Palestinian attempt at state.
WE HAVE ALREADY LOST GAZA!!!
Those people are toast either way, trump will do it fast and Biden will let Israel keep crossing Every Single Red Line.
At this point, there is no helping them, both candidates want them dead.
Fucking Biden actually probably wants the dead more than trump.
I don’t think trump actually cares one way or the other he just wants to stay out of jail, Biden actually wants them dead, they are causing him problems.
Edit: added everything after the last comma, missed it the first time.
We have three choices; Biden, Trump, deliberate non-vote.
I won’t be helping the GOP get into power because there is no scenario in which I would vote for them. Whether Biden can or cannot convince enough people to vote for him would be entirely on Biden himself. That’s how democracy works; you convince people to vote for you and get into office – He has the power to stop supporting genocide, ultimately I can’t influence him to do that other than to communicate that I will withhold my vote. If I’m unwilling to follow through on that option then it’s an empty threat.
I’m not sure why it’s become so difficult for people to understand. You’re trying to persuade the wrong person here. Write a letter to Biden and your representatives, they’re the one in office not me. I’m just a voter who Biden seems confident he doesn’t need.
I’m not trying to persuade you about anything, you’ve obviously made up your mind that helping Trump get back into power is a choice you’re willing to make to maintain your moral high ground.
I’m trying to let anyone else reading this conversation that there is a choice this election between Biden or Trump (I don’t think deliberate non-vote has a chance of becoming president) and the real work is pushing the DNC to have young, smart and progressive candidates in the next primary.
deleted by creator
I’m not voting for Trump. I’m offering my vote to the Democrats for the most minimal cost. Literally willing to forego pretty much every political and moral principle I have except putting my name on a genocide.
Non-vote isn’t just the only possible moral choice in this context, it’s also the maximal way to vote if the goal is to change the party politics like you claim to want to.
Withholding votes is pushing the DNC to allow young, smart progressive candidates, it is the only way that ever has a chance of happening. This is because they will never ever allow a progressive candidate to win a primary if their corporate pro-genocide candidates can win simply by doing the old pied piper trick. As long as pro-genocide candidates are electorally viable, they’ll continue to field them and they’ll continue to win because that’s who the party backs with funding and that’s who they tell their media arm to boost. Biden getting re-elected reinforces that cycle, it does not put us closer to disrupting it.
The strategy you’re insisting on has only resulted in democratic voters compromising on their principles more and more to the point where you’re now here trying to convince people to vote for someone funding a genocide. That’s how far from your purported goal your strategy has brought us.
Like I said, you’ve already made your mind up and I’m not trying to persuade you at all.
I know, I was addressing the misleading points you tried to float.
More words doesn’t make more truth.
Uh huh, just onnnnnne more corporate democrat and the slide towards fascism will start to reverse, right? Just one little genocide, it’s no big deal just some brown kids getting killed, just put your name on it this one time and then we pinky promise we’ll start being more progressive.
I know I know, neoliberals lost RvW through their utter negligence, but it’ll work this time if we just let the DNC take one last AIPAC check, then they’ll be satisfied and stop kneecapping progressive candidates. They totally won’t do the exact same play next election cycle and get the exact same kind of empty right-wing suit to face off against whatever alt-right freak they help the GOP dredge up out of a bog somewhere.
They’d never do that after we gave them everything they wanted and when we flinch every time they play chicken with our democracy.
Right? This time will be different, just be complicit on this one genocide.
Roe vs Wade was a lot to do with Trump’s Supreme Court nominees overturning it.
Mitch had a lot to do with that too, delaying nominations and rushing others so they could have more of their people on it.
I understand you don’t want Biden to win but it’s starting to sound more and more like you just want Trump to win to tear down the system and you’re not worried about all the innocent people who will be hurt by that.
Biden has done a lot of good too, if you can open your eyes and look.
No. Dems had the opportunity to make RvW law under Obama. They simply refused and used their super majority to force everyone to buy private insurance instead. We lost RvW because of establishment democrats and this naive belief from neoliberal voters that Dems will reform themselves “one day” if we just keep voting for their establishment picks and pretending Millenials and GenZ don’t exist. “Vote blue, no matter how beyond the pale the candidates behaviour and beliefs become because we will always make sure the other option is worse”
I am the people who will be hurt, I’m literally part of one of the first demographics the GOP will target. No one wants Trump to win but that fear for myself doesn’t stop me from staying true on my own moral limits and remaining focused on applying real pressure to reform dem party politics, because that’s literally the only viable path out of the situation Democrats have put us all in while they’ve been busy shoving corporate and Israeli cash up their asses.
We tried it your way for 40 years. It does not work. no amount of feeding the dem establishment will weaken them, only starving them will work. Yes, that is painful for all of us, but the other option is staying on the slow road to fascism.
Your taxes fund genocide. The least you could do it mitigate the damage.
Agreed.
Apparently not on the mitigation part.
The best someone can do when faced with two equally genocidal candidates is try to pressure the party that has the potential to produce non-genocidal candidates, and the only way to do that is through protest, boycott, striking and soliciting your representatives or, as a lost resort, witholding your vote to communicate clearly that pro-genocide candidates are unviable. Anything else is enabling.
You’re not mitigating anything by voting for Biden, he literally just gave Israel a billion in military aid and will do so again as soon as an opportunity presents itself. The only thing more he could be doing is literally sending in American soldiers to help with the killing.
I’d rather mitigate the immediate potential of halting of all US aid to Gaza by the Trump admin- but obviously empty ‘principles’ are more important to you than starving Palestinians.
Motherfucker please, the us already decided to withhold how many billions of unrwa?
Trump might stop giving them more, but let’s not pretend Mr. Cut off palestinian aid, shut down every ceasefire except one halfass one, continually reject every Palestinian attempt at state.
WE HAVE ALREADY LOST GAZA!!!
Those people are toast either way, trump will do it fast and Biden will let Israel keep crossing Every Single Red Line.
At this point, there is no helping them, both candidates want them dead.
Fucking Biden actually probably wants the dead more than trump.
I don’t think trump actually cares one way or the other he just wants to stay out of jail, Biden actually wants them dead, they are causing him problems.
Edit: added everything after the last comma, missed it the first time.
And the way we push them to do that is by voting for them no matter what!!!
That will make them change their mind!
Or you could choose people you like, campaign for them and volunteer you time to help them.
Up to you.
Been there, done that, still am, still will.