You’re ultimately just re-expressing the fallacy of scientism though, because in your example you’re just going to end up with aliens who have religions, or stories, or ideas about the future, or ideals, or dreams, or other unverifiable yet alien versions of everything we’ve already discussed.
Hell, there’s already suggestions out there that animals have such beliefs.
It’s a natural product of information systems when they get complex enough, there will be confusion, false commitments, compressions, duplications, signs without signifiers, and errant beliefs.
I get what you’re saying, you’re saying physically A = A, and that “all is all” is all that should concern us, and there is nothing else… But that’s not true for information systems theory.
You just have to accept that information systems are a factor of what is, even though information isn’t technically physical… It’s more, trans physical. My brain fats are currently typing some information, and it may be stored in another couple of computer languages before it gets to you … but it’s still information, as it willbe inthose other forms and places… In terms of information systems, a container can hold more than it’s capacity… Because there’s information about the information… And that’s difficult to comprehend. But there’s information about the bible that isn’t contained by the bible for instance… Information about someone’s brain that isn’t necessary within that person’s brain… It’s heady stuff.
So what you’re claiming (A = A = all that matters) shows your beliefs off as a rationalist belief-minimalist realist and logical positivist. It shows you value science and the scientific method …but that’s not the whole of what is, or what can be thought… That’s why philosophy outranks science in its capacity for defining the world…
…and why sciencism is still a limiting beliefs, regardless of its metaphysical ideals of obtaining total one to one accuracy (yep, science has its own metaphysical ideals).
Science is one of the most powerful tools humanity has, but you should hold the tool, not the other way around.
There’s a lot to unpack in your response, but ultimately it reminds me of idealism (in the metaphysical sense) vs empiricism. People will firmly believe one way or another as suits them, but if even if we didn’t exist to have this conversation (and our beliefs didn’t exist) there would be indisputable and fundamental aspects to reality and existence. What are those, and how do we probe them? I don’t think we can answer this without abandoning the metaphysical to some extent. To me it seems like non-materialist povs just muddy the waters and give a lot of voices to things that sound nice and interesting, but are ultimately just nothing 🤷♀️
Also I think it’s necessarily idealism that lends itself to relativism (your point about the aliens and animals) and not materialism. I think for me the crux of the matter is that systems and information contained therein exist with some fundamental properties, and none of that has to do with what we necessarily think of them
Edit to your point about brains: not sure if this is what you were eluding to, but even if you recreate someone’s brain outside their body to the point that both entities can affect each other, it doesn’t change the reality of the original brain and it doesn’t diminish the existence of the replicant. I think there’s enough stochasticity in physical systems that the original and replicant essentially become distinct entities over time despite having some degree of effect on each other. It’s not unlike being with another person, we all affect each other in some way.
You’re ultimately just re-expressing the fallacy of scientism though, because in your example you’re just going to end up with aliens who have religions, or stories, or ideas about the future, or ideals, or dreams, or other unverifiable yet alien versions of everything we’ve already discussed.
Hell, there’s already suggestions out there that animals have such beliefs.
It’s a natural product of information systems when they get complex enough, there will be confusion, false commitments, compressions, duplications, signs without signifiers, and errant beliefs.
I get what you’re saying, you’re saying physically A = A, and that “all is all” is all that should concern us, and there is nothing else… But that’s not true for information systems theory.
You just have to accept that information systems are a factor of what is, even though information isn’t technically physical… It’s more, trans physical. My brain fats are currently typing some information, and it may be stored in another couple of computer languages before it gets to you … but it’s still information, as it willbe inthose other forms and places… In terms of information systems, a container can hold more than it’s capacity… Because there’s information about the information… And that’s difficult to comprehend. But there’s information about the bible that isn’t contained by the bible for instance… Information about someone’s brain that isn’t necessary within that person’s brain… It’s heady stuff.
So what you’re claiming (A = A = all that matters) shows your beliefs off as a rationalist belief-minimalist realist and logical positivist. It shows you value science and the scientific method …but that’s not the whole of what is, or what can be thought… That’s why philosophy outranks science in its capacity for defining the world…
…and why sciencism is still a limiting beliefs, regardless of its metaphysical ideals of obtaining total one to one accuracy (yep, science has its own metaphysical ideals).
Science is one of the most powerful tools humanity has, but you should hold the tool, not the other way around.
There’s a lot to unpack in your response, but ultimately it reminds me of idealism (in the metaphysical sense) vs empiricism. People will firmly believe one way or another as suits them, but if even if we didn’t exist to have this conversation (and our beliefs didn’t exist) there would be indisputable and fundamental aspects to reality and existence. What are those, and how do we probe them? I don’t think we can answer this without abandoning the metaphysical to some extent. To me it seems like non-materialist povs just muddy the waters and give a lot of voices to things that sound nice and interesting, but are ultimately just nothing 🤷♀️
Also I think it’s necessarily idealism that lends itself to relativism (your point about the aliens and animals) and not materialism. I think for me the crux of the matter is that systems and information contained therein exist with some fundamental properties, and none of that has to do with what we necessarily think of them
Edit to your point about brains: not sure if this is what you were eluding to, but even if you recreate someone’s brain outside their body to the point that both entities can affect each other, it doesn’t change the reality of the original brain and it doesn’t diminish the existence of the replicant. I think there’s enough stochasticity in physical systems that the original and replicant essentially become distinct entities over time despite having some degree of effect on each other. It’s not unlike being with another person, we all affect each other in some way.
I see no evidence that metaphysics is even a thing. Where is it located? What units does it have?