Here’s the thing: the UK needs trade agreements in order to thrive. The EU may be only minimally democratic, but the fact that the people get any say at all in the terms of that set of trade agreements is considerably better than the say we’d get in any other trade agreement. Especially given that we would be the minor partner an any trade agreement we made with powerful partners: we’d be letting the USA, for example, dictate to our government. If we ever do an agreement with the USA, you can bet that it would come with rules about generic drugs, and allowing them to buy up our schools, hospitals and prisons – and the people would get no say at all.
Meanwhile the EU, for all its faults, has rules based around human rights, environmental protection, animal welfare and mutual prosperity. That’s the type of trade agreement that we want. Nothing on offer outside the EU will be as kind to us. Nothing.
Not only that: being out of the EU has cost us 5% growth per annum. Our exposure to global catastrophes has been worse, and our recoveries slower, than EU countries and comparable economies. Our labour market is a mess, our exporters are inundated with paperwork, and our governments, without the leavening influence of the “undemocratic” EU, have been more corrupt, more cruel and less respectful of human rights.
the fact that the people get any say at all in the terms of that set of trade agreements is considerably better than the say we’d get in any other trade agreement
I’ve no idea what you’re talking about.
Meanwhile the EU, for all its faults, has rules based around human rights, environmental protection, animal welfare and mutual prosperity. That’s the type of trade agreement that we want.
EU directives around human rights, environmental protection or animal welfare are not trade agreements. Membership in the EU is not a trade agreement. Indeed, the fact that it is more than just a trade agreement, is the problem.
Not only that: being out of the EU has cost us 5% growth per annum. Our exposure to global catastrophes has been worse, and our recoveries slower, than EU countries and comparable economies. Our labour market is a mess,
The cost of leaving the EU is money well spent.
our governments, without the leavening influence of the “undemocratic” EU, have been more corrupt, more cruel and less respectful of human rights
This just seems absurd to me. I see no such increases.
Regardless, you want less corruption, less cruelty, more respect for human rights, and you’re happy to give up degrees of democracy in order to have that. We differ.
Please try to understand; it’s very important. Every trade agreement we make costs us sovereignty. You want a publicly owned NHS? Too bad. It’s on the negotiating table when we deal with the Americans. In secret.
EU directives around human rights, environmental protection or animal welfare are not trade agreements.
They are effectively terms of a trade agreement. Goods traded in the EU have to meet standards.
The cost of leaving the EU is money well spent.
To what end? Nothing is better. Many things are worse. Is there any payoff at all?
This just seems absurd to me. I see no such increases.
Exhibit A: The Rwanda scheme.
you want less corruption, less cruelty, more respect for human rights, and you’re happy to give up degrees of democracy in order to have that.
I simply don’t believe we will have “more democracy” outside the EU. We elected our MEPs. We do not elect our trade negotiators, nor those with whom they negotiate. In terms of democracy, we’re swapping a pittance for nothing. So I’ll take the reduced cruelty and corruption, the human rights, and the pittance of democracy please.
No monetary payoff, no. I see now that money is what’s detaining you.
Exhibit A: The Rwanda scheme.
The Rwanda scheme isn’t an increase in the reprehensible behaviour of government, it’s the same amount of reprehensible behaviour as has always been displayed, before and after Brexit.
Anyway, to address the points you bothered to make:
No monetary payoff, no. I see now that money is what’s detaining you.
Any payoff at all? I’ll take anything.
The Rwanda scheme isn’t an increase in the reprehensible behaviour of government, it’s the same amount of reprehensible behaviour as has always been displayed, before and after Brexit.
I see it as a new low, though YMMV. My opinion is that in general, the last few years of government have been the most destructive in living memory.
So much focus on democracy. Yet when a significant portion of your population (Scotland) wants to vote to leave the UK (partly so they can stay in the EU) you don’t even let them.
Sounds like cherry picking democracy is no longer an issue.
Here’s the thing: the UK needs trade agreements in order to thrive. The EU may be only minimally democratic, but the fact that the people get any say at all in the terms of that set of trade agreements is considerably better than the say we’d get in any other trade agreement. Especially given that we would be the minor partner an any trade agreement we made with powerful partners: we’d be letting the USA, for example, dictate to our government. If we ever do an agreement with the USA, you can bet that it would come with rules about generic drugs, and allowing them to buy up our schools, hospitals and prisons – and the people would get no say at all.
Meanwhile the EU, for all its faults, has rules based around human rights, environmental protection, animal welfare and mutual prosperity. That’s the type of trade agreement that we want. Nothing on offer outside the EU will be as kind to us. Nothing.
Not only that: being out of the EU has cost us 5% growth per annum. Our exposure to global catastrophes has been worse, and our recoveries slower, than EU countries and comparable economies. Our labour market is a mess, our exporters are inundated with paperwork, and our governments, without the leavening influence of the “undemocratic” EU, have been more corrupt, more cruel and less respectful of human rights.
I’ve no idea what you’re talking about.
EU directives around human rights, environmental protection or animal welfare are not trade agreements. Membership in the EU is not a trade agreement. Indeed, the fact that it is more than just a trade agreement, is the problem.
The cost of leaving the EU is money well spent.
This just seems absurd to me. I see no such increases.
Regardless, you want less corruption, less cruelty, more respect for human rights, and you’re happy to give up degrees of democracy in order to have that. We differ.
Please try to understand; it’s very important. Every trade agreement we make costs us sovereignty. You want a publicly owned NHS? Too bad. It’s on the negotiating table when we deal with the Americans. In secret.
They are effectively terms of a trade agreement. Goods traded in the EU have to meet standards.
To what end? Nothing is better. Many things are worse. Is there any payoff at all?
Exhibit A: The Rwanda scheme.
I simply don’t believe we will have “more democracy” outside the EU. We elected our MEPs. We do not elect our trade negotiators, nor those with whom they negotiate. In terms of democracy, we’re swapping a pittance for nothing. So I’ll take the reduced cruelty and corruption, the human rights, and the pittance of democracy please.
LOL
No monetary payoff, no. I see now that money is what’s detaining you.
The Rwanda scheme isn’t an increase in the reprehensible behaviour of government, it’s the same amount of reprehensible behaviour as has always been displayed, before and after Brexit.
LOL
You realise that LOL isn’t a convincing reply?
Anyway, to address the points you bothered to make:
Any payoff at all? I’ll take anything.
I see it as a new low, though YMMV. My opinion is that in general, the last few years of government have been the most destructive in living memory.
So much focus on democracy. Yet when a significant portion of your population (Scotland) wants to vote to leave the UK (partly so they can stay in the EU) you don’t even let them.
Sounds like cherry picking democracy is no longer an issue.
I haven’t mentioned Scotland.
I did.
Why did you mention Scotland when I didn’t?
Because you claim that the main reason that the UK left the EU was because: democracy above everything. Yet the UK in itself is weirdly undemocratic.
I haven’t claimed that.
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