Israel’s leadership is pushing the allegations that Hamas fighters raped Israeli women during the October 7 attacks for its own political objectives while the government’s ongoing refusal to allow the United Nations to conduct a full investigation into the matter threatens to hinder any evidence, advocates have warned.

  • mozz
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    07 months ago

    Aha! We have arrived at the point of Never Play Defense. Someone simply observing the flow of the conversation, who doesn’t take a look at the report and compare it against what you’re saying it says, could be mistaken for thinking this is a vigorous debate between roughly equally justified points of view, or differing interpretations which are both roughly grounded in reality, or something else which isn’t you talking purely out of your ass and me giving factual citations for why you’re wrong. Kudos! Not sure what else you could do, but you’re playing it well.

    I’ll do one more round, sure. It’s not a fun game for me to play indefinitely, but:

    If this was true the UN would be saying Hamas raped people. But alas, the UN does not say that.

    I(12), page 4: “Based on the information gathered by the mission team from multiple and independent sources, there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred during the 7 October attacks in multiple locations across Gaza periphery, including rape and gang rape, in at least three locations.”

    I(13), page 4: “At the Nova music festival and its surroundings, there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of sexual violence took place with victims being subjected to rape and/or gang rape and then killed or killed while being raped.”

    If you’re going to imply that civilians unrelated to Hamas might have done it, and it wasn’t part of Hamas’s attack – as the OP article, hilariously, does – then sure, you can, if you want.

    • @LinkerbaanOP
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      7 months ago

      Strange the UN does not claim Hamas raped anyone care to explain why that is?

      Do mention what information is gathered. It is stated in the report.

      • mozz
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        07 months ago

        I think I’m comfortable with the reasons I’ve already laid out so far with citations for why what’s in the OP article and what you’re saying about it is crap.

        I’m gonna take a page from “Never Play Defense.” What do you think about this?

        This week, Israel released an appalling video featuring five female Israeli soldiers taken captive at Nahal Oz military base on October 7. Fearful and bloody, the women beg for their lives while Hamas fighters mill around and alternately threaten to kill them and compliment their appearance. The captors call the women “sabaya,” which Israel translated as “women who can get pregnant.” Almost immediately, others disputed the translation and said sabaya referred merely to “female captives” and included no reference to their fertility. “The Arabic word sabaya doesn’t have sexual connotations,” the Al Jazeera journalist Laila Al-Arian wrote in a post on X, taking exception to a Washington Post article that said that it did. She said the Israeli translation was “playing on racist and orientalist tropes about Arabs and Muslims.”

        These are real women and victims of ongoing war crimes, so it does seem excessively lurid to suggest, without direct evidence, that they have been raped in captivity for the past several months. (“Eight months,” the Israelis noted, allowing readers to do the gestational math. “Think of what that means for these young women.”) But to assert that sabaya is devoid of sexual connotation reflects ignorance, at best. The word is well attested in classical sources and refers to female captives; the choice of a classical term over a modern one implies a fondness for classical modes of war, which codified sexual violence at scale. Just as concubine and comfort woman carry the befoulments of their modern use, sabaya is straightfowardly associated with what we moderns call rape.

        • @LinkerbaanOP
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          7 months ago

          I think the official IDF translator lied about translations and you are reposting their propagandanda.

          This was quite a scandal a little while back. Even Reuters censored the subtitles on the video because they said it was wrong. Of course anyone can use a translator these days and find out that the subtitles are propaganda.

          Consider doing fact checking before posting.

          • mozz
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            27 months ago

            Since you abandoned this line of conversation, I posted the article (in a non paywalled version) if you’re interested in resurrecting it.

            I am somewhat anticipating that me posting it will be interpreted as Zionism, so you may be in good company if you want to head over to the comments and start yelling at me that I am a bad person for being opposed to this particular type of rape, because of who the victims are.

          • mozz
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            7 months ago

            (2/2 - this is the rest of the article I pasted as the “1/2” section of the comment)

            But in the premodern context, before the rights revolution that consecrated every person with individual, unalienable worth, sex slavery was unremarkable, and the principal concern was not whether to do it but what to do with the children. The Prophet Muhammad freed a slave after she bore him a child. The Jewish paterfamilias Abraham released his slave Hagar into the desert 14 years after she bore him Ishmael. But these are cases from antiquity, and modern folk see things differently. Frederick Douglass, in the opening of his autobiography, emphasized the inhumanity of American slave owners by noting the abhorrent results of those relationships: fathers hating, owning, abusing, and selling their own kin.

            Sabaya is a term in part born of the need to distinguish captives potentially subject to these procreative regulations from those who would be less complicated to own. To translate it as “women who can get pregnant” is regrettably misleading. It makes explicit what the word connotes, namely that these captives fall under a legal category with possibilities distinct from those of their male counterparts. As Al-Tamimi observes, Hamas could just as easily have used a standard Arabic word for female war captives, asirat. This neutral word is used on Arabic Wikipedia, say, for Jessica Lynch, the American prisoner of war from the 2003 Iraq invasion. Instead Hamas used a term with a different history.

            One could read too much into the choice of words. No one, to my knowledge, has suggested that Hamas is following the Islamic State by reviving sex slavery as a legal category. I know of no evidence that it has done so, and if it did, I would expect many of the group’s supporters, even those comfortable with its killing of concertgoers and old people, to denounce the group. More likely, a single group of Hamas members used the word in an especially heady moment, during which they wanted to degrade and humiliate their captives as much as possible. Thankfully, the captives appear unaware of the language being used around them. The language suggests that the fighters were open to raping the women, but it could also just be reprehensible talk, after an already coarsening day of mass killing.

            Reading too much into the language seems, at this point, to be less of a danger than reading too little into it. As soon as the Israeli translation came out, it was assailed for its inaccuracy, when it was actually just gesturing clumsily at a real, though not easily summarized, historical background. What, if anything, should the translation have said? “Female captives” does not carry the appropriate resonance; “sex-slavery candidates” would err in the other direction and imply too much. Every translation loses something. Is there a word in English that conveys that one views the battered women in one’s control as potentially sexually available? I think probably not. I would be very careful before speaking up to defend the user of such a word.

          • mozz
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            (1/2)

            Here, I’ll repost the full article, which of course does no such thing as relying on a single IDF translation as its sole and only source, and instead actually deals at length with what the word means, how it was recently resurrected, and what it does and doesn’t imply about any official sanction from Hamas leadership.

            I am not surprised that you want to replace this kind of detailed analysis with a simple and pithy oversimplification, since any detailed analysis will expose the truth that you’re openly defending rape.

            This week, Israel released an appalling video featuring five female Israeli soldiers taken captive at Nahal Oz military base on October 7. Fearful and bloody, the women beg for their lives while Hamas fighters mill around and alternately threaten to kill them and compliment their appearance. The captors call the women “sabaya,” which Israel translated as “women who can get pregnant.” Almost immediately, others disputed the translation and said sabaya referred merely to “female captives” and included no reference to their fertility. “The Arabic word sabaya doesn’t have sexual connotations,” the Al Jazeera journalist Laila Al-Arian wrote in a post on X, taking exception to a Washington Post article that said that it did. She said the Israeli translation was “playing on racist and orientalist tropes about Arabs and Muslims.”

            These are real women and victims of ongoing war crimes, so it does seem excessively lurid to suggest, without direct evidence, that they have been raped in captivity for the past several months. (“Eight months,” the Israelis noted, allowing readers to do the gestational math. “Think of what that means for these young women.”) But to assert that sabaya is devoid of sexual connotation reflects ignorance, at best. The word is well attested in classical sources and refers to female captives; the choice of a classical term over a modern one implies a fondness for classical modes of war, which codified sexual violence at scale. Just as concubine and comfort woman carry the befoulments of their historic use, sabaya is straightforwardly associated with what we moderns call rape. Anyone who uses sabaya in modern Gaza or Raqqah can be assumed to have specific and disgusting reasons to want to revive it.

            The word sabaya recently reappeared in the modern Arabic lexicon through the efforts of the Islamic State. Unsurprisingly, then, the scholars best equipped for this analysis are the ones who observed and cataloged how ISIS revived sabaya (and many other dormant classical and medieval terms). I refer here to Aymenn J. Al-Tamimi, recently of Swansea University, and to Cole Bunzel of the Hoover Institution, who have both commented on this controversy without sensationalism, except insofar as the potential of sexual enslavement is inherently sensational.

            Under classical Islamic jurisprudence on the law of war, the possible fates of enemy captives are four: They can be killed, ransomed, enslaved, or freed. Those enslaved are then subject to the rules that govern slavery in Islam—which are extensive, and are nearly as irrelevant to the daily lives of most living Muslims as the rules concerning slavery in Judaism are to the lives of most Jews. I say “nearly” because Jews have not had a state that sought to regulate slavery for many centuries, but the last majority-Muslim states abolished slavery only in the second half of the 20th century, and the Islamic State enthusiastically resumed the practice in 2014.

            In doing so, the Islamic State reaffirmed the privileges, and duties, of the slave owner. (Bunzel observes that the Islamic State cited scholars who used the term sabaya as if captured women were considered slaves by default, and the other fates were implicitly improbable.) The slave owner is responsible for the welfare of the slave, including her food and shelter. He is allowed to have sex with female slaves, but certain rules apply. He may not sell her off until he can confirm that she isn’t pregnant, and he has obligations to her and to their children, if any are born from their union. I cannot stress enough that such relationships—that is, having sex with someone you own—constitute rape in all modern interpretations of the word, and they are frowned upon whether they occur in the Levant, the Hejaz, or Monticello.

            • @LinkerbaanOP
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              7 months ago

              Stop posting IDF propaganda this is getting embarrassing.

              If your evidence for Hamas raping people is not being able to use google translate we are done talking.

              • @TheFonz
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                07 months ago

                What a weird hill to die on…you don’t have to defend Hamas in order to be critical of Israel. It’s not one or the other Linkerbaan. Or does that break the Larp. I can’t understand people like you.

                Kony 2012 I guess…?

                • mozz
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                  17 months ago

                  I think some people’s brains are all-or-nothing. I mean, it’s certainly true that whatever significant crimes against humanity Hamas is doing, Israel is doing literally 10 times worse. But some people will go from there to saying that everything Palestinian is good, even if it’s a violent and corrupt organization like Hamas which is bringing only death and destruction to innocents on both sides, and accomplishing nothing at all for better conditions for the Palestinian people.

                  Surely the right answer is for the Palestinian people who only want to live and not get murdered or starved to death, and the Israeli people who only want to go to the music festival and not get raped or shot or kidnapped, to gang up and seize all the people on both sides who want to continue and profit off the conflict, and string them up upside-down like Mussolini, so they can die of thirst over several days in the hot desert sun. Then, the problem simplified, they can get together and work out some approximation of a peace agreement.

                  Surely there are a few problems with that, not least of which that the people who like continuing the war have most of the weapons and wouldn’t agree to the proposal. But that makes more sense to me than picking a “right side” and defending them regardless of what horrifying thing they’re doing to innocent people on the “wrong side.”

                  • @TheFonz
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                    7 months ago

                    Because people like @[email protected] don’t really care about any of this. It’s all a larp.

                    I see it as the same effect as Kony 2012 was when everyone was updating their FB profile (or like when people put the rainbow flag during pride month). It’s an aesthetic, nothing more. If they really cared about resolutions they would be promoting anything towards that, not constant opinion blog posts. Not constant bickering. Not this vitriolic reactionary stuff every time someone pushes back or asks questions.

                    It’s just theatre. And it feels good.

              • mozz
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                07 months ago

                My evidence for Hamas raping people is the UN report I already posted which talks about all the evidence for Hamas raping people. We’re talking about something different, which is Hamas fighters using a word which is explicitly associated with rape (and a pretty in depth explanation of what it does and doesn’t imply.)

                Isn’t “Never Play Defense” fun? I can switch to a new accusation, if you decide to change your mind and continue the conversation.

                • @LinkerbaanOP
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                  27 months ago

                  Strange can you explain explain why the UN doesn’t say Hamas raped people if your 'UN Report" contains evidence.

                  Surely they wouldn’t need to call for an investigation first.

                  • mozz
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                    7 months ago

                    That’s actually a fairly reasonable question, which I know you asked a couple times already, which I haven’t addressed.

                    So, I’ll give a genuine answer: The report explicitly doesn’t deal with the question of who raped the Israeli women who were raped during the October 7th attack, because they were already dealing with enough evidentiary difficulties just trying to put together and say conclusively whether or not it had happened, and where, and dealing with a certain amount of dishonesty and fog-of-war among other issues that made it hard to even sort out the basics, especially with victims who are now deceased where they were dealing purely with forensic evidence. Trying to bring a standard of proof of which specific men had done it into the equation would have made their already pretty challenging task more difficult and more open to criticism, I think.

                    To me, that’s not automatically a bad thing. It means they’re being cautious and trying to have solid backing for things they are saying. I would contrast it for example with the abysmally low standard of proof that led your OP article to write things like “some reports have asserted that those acts and other reported atrocities were committed by civilians and those not affiliated with the group.” Of course, it’s easy to simply say that obviously it was probably unrelated civilians who raped all these women during the October 7th attack, and not Hamas, if you don’t feel bound by the need to produce evidence or even answer simple questions like, “What reports? Who are you saying did the rapes, then? What the fuck are you talking about?”

                    You are, of course, welcome to seize onto that pretty sensible decision by the report authors and shake it back and forth like a little bad-faith terrier, as if it somehow invalidated the whole report – for example, implying that the evidence it presents of hostages who were raped during captivity somehow leaves open the possibility that they were raped by some other, non-Hamas captors during their time as prisoners of Hamas.

                    Speaking of which, how’s that search for the report’s treatment of the prisoners who were raped in captivity coming? I can give you a couple other hints about where to find it, if you still can’t find it after I sent you a link to the report, and then gave you hints about where to look in the table of contents, which page of the TOC, and the general area on the page where you might be able to find the applicable entry.