RIYADH: The death toll from this year's Haj has exceeded 1,000, an AFP tally said on Thursday (Jun 20), more than half of them unregistered worshippers who performed the pilgrimage in extreme heat in Saudi Arabi
Allah doesn’t seem to give a shit about some of his most faithful humans since he lets them die of heat exhaustion while doing the specific thing he told them to do.
Thats your take, not the take of the people who go there. In your eyes, letting them die is “not caring about them” but in islam, that just means that they will get much better rewards in the hereafter.
In islam, the world is a place of test, not a place where to get justice. You get justice in the hereafter.
I welcome this person to keep trying to convince me that their god is not an asshole for being omnipotent but letting 1000 of his faithful die for doing the specific thing he told them to do, but they’re sure going to have an uphill battle.
I don’t think i can convince/prove to you that he isn’t but my intention is show that you can’t prove he is as well. In the end, you believing him to be an asshole is just that, a belief.
Sure from your world view, because you are not omniscient. If Allah chooses to do something it is his decision, we cannot ask for an explanation, at least not in this world because that would make the “test” too easy. And that’s just if we even could understand it, which we most likely can’t.
Of course it’s possible to say someone is an asshole without knowing the “full consequences.” Other than you telling me things you can’t possibly prove, I’ve been given no reason to believe that a supposedly omnipotent being allowing 1000 people doing specifically what he commanded them to do die makes him an asshole. If he exists.
If you have the power to stop 1000 people from dying, then you tell them to do something and let them die (and not peacefully either considering how unpleasant heat exhaustion is), you’re an asshole. And telling me that they will be rewarded later (which, again, you cannot prove) doesn’t make up for it. If I stab you in the eye and then give you $1000, I’m still the asshole who stabbed you in the eye.
If he doesn’t want to be called an asshole, let him defend himself. Or is he not omnipotent enough to do that and you have to do it for him based on your own unprovable claims?
Of course it’s possible to say someone is an asshole without knowing the “full consequences.”
How can you judge an action without knowing all that led to it and all that will happen because of it?
If you have the power to stop 1000 people from dying, then you tell them to do something and let them die, you’re an asshole.
Sure, if i (a human) were to do it, I would be an asshole but we can’t judge an entity that is infinite with the same logic.
If he doesn’t want to be called an asshole, let him defend himself. Or is he not omnipotent enough to do that and you have to do it for him based on your own unprovable claims?
I don’t think he cares what you think considering you do not have the same knowledge as him (we all are created and he is the creator). But even if he were to defend, based on your request, there are multiple assumptions you made. Such as he needs to show up and talk in front of you, when it could be that me agruing here is the manifestation of him defending himself.
Hand waving to you sure, but to many believers that is the truth. You cannot say that this action is bad because you do not possess the ability, i mean think about the butterfly effect for an example why it is not possible. But Allah is infinite therefore he possesses this ability.
Secondly it is his choice, for how to exercise his love, whether in this world or the afterworld. Muslims believe that he is most loving so when we don’t see it in this world the assumption is that we will get it in the hereafter.
This world is not a place for justice and neither is it fair, for we get it in the hereafter.
No? Just because some people believe it doesn’t make it true. That’s like saying because many people believe you can see the great wall of China from space, that it’s true.
A millenium-old book which makes grand claims with no real evidence (and many things wrong!) to back them up so a pedo warlord could live a life of relative luxury with his several wives and conquer Arabia does not count as evidence by the way.
the butterfly effect for example why it is not possible
… The butterfly effect is well proven and very easy to see with simply a double pendulum.
Are you telling me what I can see right in front of me does not exist?
it is his choice, for how to exercise his love
Or to never exercise it at all clearly. Maybe it’s because he doesn’t exist?
Muslims believe that he is most loving so when we don’t see it in this world the assumption is that we will get it in the hereafter.
Very convenient way of explaining away the fact that good things and bad things happen randomly and/or as a direct result of human actions, not as a result of “Allah” choosing how to “exercise love”.
This world is not a place for justice and neither is it fair, for we get it in the hereafter.
How do you know that? There is zero real proof and any “proof” in Islam has been well and truly debunked. You can’t just take an old book at it’s word you know.
cannot say that this action is bad because you do not possess the ability
But Allah is infinite therefore he possesses this ability
What is “this ability” you’re talking about? And Allah doesn’t exist, sorry to break it to you.
That said, I feel for the families of the people who died.
Firstly, i am happy and appreciate that you feel for the families of the victim.
No? Just because some people believe it doesn’t make it true.
Im not saying it is makes it true. But because of my belief (and the belief of the people who died and go for hajj), it is truth for me.
In the end I am responsible for my actions, and my time here on earth.
The butterfly effect is well proven and very easy to see with simply a double pendulum.
Butterfly effect and double pendulum are both examples of chaotic systems. We cannot predict their motion because the tiniest changes lead to huge changes later on.
What I am saying is that, we humans can not predict what will happen because of the butterfly effect but since Allah is not bound by the laws of the universe (ie. He is infinite). Therefore the judgment that an action he took is wrong or right is not something we can know.
Or to never exercise it at all clearly. Maybe it’s because he doesn’t exist?
That’s just your opinion and i obviously disagree.
Very convenient way of explaining away the fact that good things and bad things happen randomly and/or as a direct result of human actions, not as a result of “Allah” choosing how to “exercise love”.
Again the difference between your statement and my statement is that my statements come from my belief in Allah and yours from your disbelief in Allah.
How do you know that? There is zero real proof and any “proof” in Islam has been well and truly debunked. You can’t just take an old book at it’s word you know.
My belief in Allah and thereafter is based on my personal experiences. And unless you experience it as well I doubt that you will become a believer because of my experiences. I do pray that you experience it as well but that’s about all that I can do.
What is “this ability” you’re talking about?
The ability to know both future and past. He is all knowing. In islamic theology, Allah exist outside of the universe and not bound by its rules. Everything else has to follow some rules/laws, he is the creator and everything else is created.
And Allah doesn’t exist, sorry to break it to you.
The difference is I disbelieve because I’ve read portions of the Quran and found logical faults/inconsistencies which can’t be made by an omnipotent being and you believe because… ??
I believe because of my personal experiences. You cannot know what could or couldn’t be said by an omnipotent being unless you are omnipotent as well, especially when the Quran is not a book of proofs and mathematics.
I’m sorry but when the Quran makes it out that the sun and moon both orbit Earth when that is very clearly false I can’t take it seriously.
Copying from a comment I made on Reddit:
The Quran is considered the unchanging word of Allah passed down to Muhammed by Gabriel. But then what does it mean when the Quran is demonstrably wrong? Well, it means Islam falls apart as the “word of Allah” is disproven.
For example, I’m going to note a verse from the Quran which reveals the Quran’s model of the solar system:
“It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.” (Quran 36:40)
I’ve picked this verse because typically when the Quran conflicts with well-known, proven, modern fact and science, the defense from Muslims is that it’s metaphorical in some way (how convenient). But here not even the metaphorical interpretation makes sense, so its a good verse to solidly disprove.
First, the literal interpretation:
The idea of “overtaking” and the sun and moon’s inability to do so requires the two objects (in this case, the sun and moon) to be moving along roughly the same path/direction (or in the case of celestial objects, the same orbit), else the sentence makes no sense. Following this, this means that according to the Quran, the sun and moon follow the same orbit, an orbit around Earth (i.e. an Earth-centred solar system). This isn’t true, and is easily proven nowadays.
The metaphorical interpretation:
If we take “overtaking” to mean appearing to cross over in the sky and not literal overtaking, well, that’s still wrong. Because exactly that happens during a solar eclipse. The moon appears to overtake the sun in the sky, crossing over it and eclipsing it in the process. So the metaphorical interpretation is also incorrect.
As we can see, no matter which way we decide to interpret this verse, literal or metaphorical, it’s wrong. The “word of Allah” is wrong, and Islam crumbles.
Allah does what he wants, and he is not bound by the opinions of humans.
Allah doesn’t seem to give a shit about some of his most faithful humans since he lets them die of heat exhaustion while doing the specific thing he told them to do.
Not my fault if their god is an asshole.
Thats your take, not the take of the people who go there. In your eyes, letting them die is “not caring about them” but in islam, that just means that they will get much better rewards in the hereafter.
In islam, the world is a place of test, not a place where to get justice. You get justice in the hereafter.
So Allah picks and chooses amongst his most faithful who gets the best rewards?
That still makes him sound like an asshole.
No, no! Skydaddy good! Everyone else is ignorant!
I welcome this person to keep trying to convince me that their god is not an asshole for being omnipotent but letting 1000 of his faithful die for doing the specific thing he told them to do, but they’re sure going to have an uphill battle.
I don’t expect you to be convinced because obviously you are not a muslim. Im just showing the flaw in your logic/assumption
You really haven’t showed me a flaw in my assumption that the Allah Muslims claim to exist is an asshole.
I don’t think i can convince/prove to you that he isn’t but my intention is show that you can’t prove he is as well. In the end, you believing him to be an asshole is just that, a belief.
Unironically, that is what i believe. So spot on!
Sure from your world view, because you are not omniscient. If Allah chooses to do something it is his decision, we cannot ask for an explanation, at least not in this world because that would make the “test” too easy. And that’s just if we even could understand it, which we most likely can’t.
“I can’t explain why he’s being an asshole” doesn’t make him not an asshole.
What i am saying is, it is not possible to say someone is an asshole, unless you know the full consequences of someone’s action.
To say that he is or isn’t both requires us to know this full context.
I say he isn’t an asshole because of my belief.
You say he is an asshole because of your belief.
Of course it’s possible to say someone is an asshole without knowing the “full consequences.” Other than you telling me things you can’t possibly prove, I’ve been given no reason to believe that a supposedly omnipotent being allowing 1000 people doing specifically what he commanded them to do die makes him an asshole. If he exists.
If you have the power to stop 1000 people from dying, then you tell them to do something and let them die (and not peacefully either considering how unpleasant heat exhaustion is), you’re an asshole. And telling me that they will be rewarded later (which, again, you cannot prove) doesn’t make up for it. If I stab you in the eye and then give you $1000, I’m still the asshole who stabbed you in the eye.
If he doesn’t want to be called an asshole, let him defend himself. Or is he not omnipotent enough to do that and you have to do it for him based on your own unprovable claims?
How can you judge an action without knowing all that led to it and all that will happen because of it?
Sure, if i (a human) were to do it, I would be an asshole but we can’t judge an entity that is infinite with the same logic.
I don’t think he cares what you think considering you do not have the same knowledge as him (we all are created and he is the creator). But even if he were to defend, based on your request, there are multiple assumptions you made. Such as he needs to show up and talk in front of you, when it could be that me agruing here is the manifestation of him defending himself.
Love the hand-waving here to justify that if your “Allah” exists (he doesn’t, there’s plenty of plot holes in the Quran), he’s clearly not so loving.
Most Wise, Most Loving, Most High (probably on weed)
Hand waving to you sure, but to many believers that is the truth. You cannot say that this action is bad because you do not possess the ability, i mean think about the butterfly effect for an example why it is not possible. But Allah is infinite therefore he possesses this ability.
Secondly it is his choice, for how to exercise his love, whether in this world or the afterworld. Muslims believe that he is most loving so when we don’t see it in this world the assumption is that we will get it in the hereafter.
This world is not a place for justice and neither is it fair, for we get it in the hereafter.
No? Just because some people believe it doesn’t make it true. That’s like saying because many people believe you can see the great wall of China from space, that it’s true.
A millenium-old book which makes grand claims with no real evidence (and many things wrong!) to back them up so a pedo warlord could live a life of relative luxury with his several wives and conquer Arabia does not count as evidence by the way.
… The butterfly effect is well proven and very easy to see with simply a double pendulum.
Are you telling me what I can see right in front of me does not exist?
Or to never exercise it at all clearly. Maybe it’s because he doesn’t exist?
Very convenient way of explaining away the fact that good things and bad things happen randomly and/or as a direct result of human actions, not as a result of “Allah” choosing how to “exercise love”.
How do you know that? There is zero real proof and any “proof” in Islam has been well and truly debunked. You can’t just take an old book at it’s word you know.
What is “this ability” you’re talking about? And Allah doesn’t exist, sorry to break it to you.
That said, I feel for the families of the people who died.
Firstly, i am happy and appreciate that you feel for the families of the victim.
Im not saying it is makes it true. But because of my belief (and the belief of the people who died and go for hajj), it is truth for me.
In the end I am responsible for my actions, and my time here on earth.
Butterfly effect and double pendulum are both examples of chaotic systems. We cannot predict their motion because the tiniest changes lead to huge changes later on.
What I am saying is that, we humans can not predict what will happen because of the butterfly effect but since Allah is not bound by the laws of the universe (ie. He is infinite). Therefore the judgment that an action he took is wrong or right is not something we can know.
That’s just your opinion and i obviously disagree.
Again the difference between your statement and my statement is that my statements come from my belief in Allah and yours from your disbelief in Allah.
My belief in Allah and thereafter is based on my personal experiences. And unless you experience it as well I doubt that you will become a believer because of my experiences. I do pray that you experience it as well but that’s about all that I can do.
The ability to know both future and past. He is all knowing. In islamic theology, Allah exist outside of the universe and not bound by its rules. Everything else has to follow some rules/laws, he is the creator and everything else is created.
Again, we disagree because of our belief systems.
The difference is I disbelieve because I’ve read portions of the Quran and found logical faults/inconsistencies which can’t be made by an omnipotent being and you believe because… ??
I believe because of my personal experiences. You cannot know what could or couldn’t be said by an omnipotent being unless you are omnipotent as well, especially when the Quran is not a book of proofs and mathematics.
I’m sorry but when the Quran makes it out that the sun and moon both orbit Earth when that is very clearly false I can’t take it seriously.
Copying from a comment I made on Reddit:
The Quran is considered the unchanging word of Allah passed down to Muhammed by Gabriel. But then what does it mean when the Quran is demonstrably wrong? Well, it means Islam falls apart as the “word of Allah” is disproven.
For example, I’m going to note a verse from the Quran which reveals the Quran’s model of the solar system:
“It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.” (Quran 36:40)
I’ve picked this verse because typically when the Quran conflicts with well-known, proven, modern fact and science, the defense from Muslims is that it’s metaphorical in some way (how convenient). But here not even the metaphorical interpretation makes sense, so its a good verse to solidly disprove.
First, the literal interpretation:
The idea of “overtaking” and the sun and moon’s inability to do so requires the two objects (in this case, the sun and moon) to be moving along roughly the same path/direction (or in the case of celestial objects, the same orbit), else the sentence makes no sense. Following this, this means that according to the Quran, the sun and moon follow the same orbit, an orbit around Earth (i.e. an Earth-centred solar system). This isn’t true, and is easily proven nowadays.
The metaphorical interpretation:
If we take “overtaking” to mean appearing to cross over in the sky and not literal overtaking, well, that’s still wrong. Because exactly that happens during a solar eclipse. The moon appears to overtake the sun in the sky, crossing over it and eclipsing it in the process. So the metaphorical interpretation is also incorrect.
As we can see, no matter which way we decide to interpret this verse, literal or metaphorical, it’s wrong. The “word of Allah” is wrong, and Islam crumbles.
They seem to be saying “Allah can do this and you can’t, therefore Allah is real.” Which is a very odd attempt at an argument.