There’s a difference between watching a sport and watching someone play a videogame that you can play yourself on a PC in your room alone. It’s fundamentally different to watch a person play a videogame on twitch than watching professional sports on tv even if it’s physically possible to play the sport
The fundamental difference is That you don’t have to field a team, practice, meet up, etc. to play baulders gate. it was built from the ground up to be experienced by a person the same way you might read a book.
Watching someone else play it isn’t the same as that same person watching football because a writer, or game developer doesnt write a sport. You aren’t defeating the purpose of a sport when you watch someone else play it, you’re just watching people participate in a framework of rules, not experience a narrative. You are defeating the point of the media when you watch someone else play it through YouTube or twitch. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, like for instance if you can’t afford a game or maybe don’t like playing souls likes but like the story, but it’s not the same thing.
The comparison should be “you like movies why don’t you watch movies?” But of course, the dad probably does watch movies.
The fundamental difference is That you don’t have to field a team, practice, meet up, etc. to play baulders gate.
You definitely do that for competitive/ranked gaming or esports.
Yeah duh that’s why it’s called eSPORTS I’m not really talking about 1 genre of videogames I’m talking the medium in general so we should limit this to concepts that can be applied universally here.
it was built from the ground up to be experienced by a person the same way you might read a book.
Conveniently, you chose a genre that is literally based off of books. Regardless, games like that aren’t even played like “reading a book”, they go completely differently every playthrough. I don’t see the point you’re trying to make here.
Okay halo 1, the last of us, God of war. Happy now? Not based on a book.
Watching someone else play it isn’t the same as that same person watching football because a writer, or game developer doesnt write a sport. You aren’t defeating the purpose of a sport when you watch someone else play it, you’re just watching people participate in a framework of rules, not experience a narrative.
You aren’t defeating the purpose of a game when you play it.
What?
.Unless it’s a visual novel or something, it’s not like you’re reading a book. Not only are you pretending that all games are primarily narratives with a path that it’s predetermined you’ll take within a short number of playthroughs, but the narratives you are talking about still don’t fit your description.
What do you mean? Yes they do. It was an experience that was built by a developer for a player. Experiencing it second hand is a diminished way to experience it. Just because it can be played more than once doesn’t make my point invalid.
People aren’t all the same and they play games completely differently, unless you have thousands of hours to put into literally every game you’re not gonna experience every unique experience from a game like Baldur’s Gate man.
It was just 1 example. Holy shit.
You are defeating the point of the media when you watch someone else play it through YouTube or twitch.
Not at all. You’re not going through a predetermined experience when you play Rainbow Six Siege (ew) or Baldur’s Gate 3 any more than when you play soccer or golf. Chess is technically “predetermined” in a sense that it has a finite number of moves you can take and a finite number of possible outcomes, you can technically “solve” chess, but we’re not gonna pretend like that means watching it defeats the purpose of playing chess.
Watching 2 people engage with a framework of rules isn’t the same thing as experiencing an artist’s art, be it chess or football.
Watching other people use the tools the game gives them along with their own creativity is what makes both sports and games fun.
Correct. However if someone is watching someone else play a game on twitch that’s a second hand experience. It isn’t how the game is designed to be interfaced with, at least it hasn’t been. That was kind of my last musing in my first post is that that may be changing.
I’m not going to think of everything the same as someone else; and I certainly don’t want to play a few million matches of soccer until I experience every new soccer experience, so why should I be expected to do that with games?
Why are you insisting that experiencing a narrative must consist of exploring every branching path of the flow chart of possibility for the game? That’s never what I said.
Watching someone use some advanced technique to improve their play shouldn’t defeat the purpose of basketball for me, I just try to incorporate that into my play or think “oh that’s neat” or something and continue playing. Watching someone do something creative or something I didn’t know about in a game just improves the experience while also being entertaining.
Okay. That’s to be expected lol
That being said, I don’t play games much nor watch games anymore, so maybe the gaming YouTubers have compromised by enjoyment of gaming. But I also don’t watch or play sports anymore so it’s probably just the neccessity to have a job keeping me from using my free time on entertainment…
The comparison should be “you like movies why don’t you watch movies?” But of course, the dad probably does watch movies.
As an example: the end of portal 2 and the “ending” of portal 1. You can only experience that stuff for the first time once. If you aren’t the player, your experience is cheapened. Your satisfaction for figuring out what to do in each of those moments is a powerful feeling that cannot be replicated by watching someone else do it. It’s diet vs regular.
if you can’t see a difference between figuring out what you’re supposed to do in those 2 specific moments I’m referring to for yourself as the player and just watching someone else do it, then there’s no hope for you to understand what I’m saying.
Yeah duh that’s why it’s called eSPORTS I’m not really talking about 1 genre of videogames I’m talking the medium in general so we should limit this to concepts that can be applied universally here.
So you’re admitting your entire argument is “story mode games are different from competitive games”. That’s what you mean when you say that watching games is profoundly different from watching sports. Gotcha.
Yes.
And then you’re pretending that competitive games/gamemodes and other non-narrative/non-art focused games are A. all one genre or only exist as e-sports and B. don’t make up a large portion of the most played and most watched games.
No. Youre just trying to sound like a shit head.
Then, you’re pretending that it actually makes a difference to the viewer as to whether or not Alien Isolation is intended to be experienced “second-hand” compared to kicking a ball with some specific time and scoring rules.
No. It doesn’t make a difference to the viewer that does it, obviously they seem to not care, because they do it anyway…but it isn’t engaging with the content the way it should be engaged with.
The viewers aren’t the ones solving puzzles, making choices, thinking, getting rewarded, progressing, leveling up, etc.
it’s all second hand. The “player fantasy” isn’t their own when they watch someone else just do it on a stream or supercut. It’s fine, it’s just not a true experience. It’s a voyeur experience.
Clearly the average viewer of bakery simulator streamers or horror game streamers are getting the exact same sort of engagement and experience as someone watching a match of tennis or soccer. The end result, to the viewer, pretty much the same, which makes your “point” moot.
That isn’t clear at all. I’m literally saying that it is explicitly a different experience even if it’s similar. That’s my whole fucking point.
The entire point is the experience of watching the content itself.
Watching isn’t playing. This is my whole fucking point.
Your idea is that games “weren’t designed” for it, therefore it must be an entirely different experience for the viewer. It isn’t.
It is. To what level is dependent on the game and what differences can be discerned from someone watching it be played vs playing it. There is a spectrum here and every game will have a different “watched experience”. Some will be closer or further from actually playing it yourself.
There is more disparity in how someone feels watching golf vs. American football than there is between someone watching American football vs. Halo Red vs Blue or Overwatch.
What are you talking about? Your comparing the difference of experience between watching 2 sports. Vs a sport and a machinima ? What is your point? None of this is an active experience?
There is more similarity between watching tennis and watching Omori than there is between watching tennis and watching Airsoft.
Idk what omori is
Sports are often times more different from each other than they are from games, and games are often times more similar to sports than they are to other games. It’s not complicated to grasp, really.
There’s like three leagues in my suburban area, so I imagine quite a lot.
I believe there’s zero difference between sports and sports other than audience size and length of time the leagues have been around.
Now a single streamer playing a single player game and mostly engaging with the audience? That’s a different matter, and probably more like drive time radio than anything.
Literally like everywhere. If you were American you could replace that with baseball or American football or basketball, or from somewhere else it could be cricket or rugby or something. Regardless of where you are in the world, it’d be harder to not stumble into something sports related than to avoid them. You could go to wartorn Haiti 0.0001 seconds after a hurricane and an earthquake and there’d be groups of people playing soccer on the rubble.
Organized? How exactly? “Organized” varies by regional law or context. If it’s sponsored by a local sport union and the play is based around a set of rules, that would be organized enough for you, no? That’s the assumption I operated off of.
Why does being “organized” matter in the first place? Something doesn’t need to be professional league whatever for you to view it anyways. Neither sports nor video games.
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There’s a difference between watching a sport and watching someone play a videogame that you can play yourself on a PC in your room alone. It’s fundamentally different to watch a person play a videogame on twitch than watching professional sports on tv even if it’s physically possible to play the sport
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The fundamental difference is That you don’t have to field a team, practice, meet up, etc. to play baulders gate. it was built from the ground up to be experienced by a person the same way you might read a book.
Watching someone else play it isn’t the same as that same person watching football because a writer, or game developer doesnt write a sport. You aren’t defeating the purpose of a sport when you watch someone else play it, you’re just watching people participate in a framework of rules, not experience a narrative. You are defeating the point of the media when you watch someone else play it through YouTube or twitch. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, like for instance if you can’t afford a game or maybe don’t like playing souls likes but like the story, but it’s not the same thing.
The comparison should be “you like movies why don’t you watch movies?” But of course, the dad probably does watch movies.
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You definitely do that for competitive/ranked gaming or esports.
Yeah duh that’s why it’s called eSPORTS I’m not really talking about 1 genre of videogames I’m talking the medium in general so we should limit this to concepts that can be applied universally here.
Conveniently, you chose a genre that is literally based off of books. Regardless, games like that aren’t even played like “reading a book”, they go completely differently every playthrough. I don’t see the point you’re trying to make here.
Okay halo 1, the last of us, God of war. Happy now? Not based on a book.
You aren’t defeating the purpose of a game when you play it.
What?
.Unless it’s a visual novel or something, it’s not like you’re reading a book. Not only are you pretending that all games are primarily narratives with a path that it’s predetermined you’ll take within a short number of playthroughs, but the narratives you are talking about still don’t fit your description.
What do you mean? Yes they do. It was an experience that was built by a developer for a player. Experiencing it second hand is a diminished way to experience it. Just because it can be played more than once doesn’t make my point invalid.
People aren’t all the same and they play games completely differently, unless you have thousands of hours to put into literally every game you’re not gonna experience every unique experience from a game like Baldur’s Gate man.
It was just 1 example. Holy shit.
Not at all. You’re not going through a predetermined experience when you play Rainbow Six Siege (ew) or Baldur’s Gate 3 any more than when you play soccer or golf. Chess is technically “predetermined” in a sense that it has a finite number of moves you can take and a finite number of possible outcomes, you can technically “solve” chess, but we’re not gonna pretend like that means watching it defeats the purpose of playing chess.
Watching 2 people engage with a framework of rules isn’t the same thing as experiencing an artist’s art, be it chess or football.
Watching other people use the tools the game gives them along with their own creativity is what makes both sports and games fun.
Correct. However if someone is watching someone else play a game on twitch that’s a second hand experience. It isn’t how the game is designed to be interfaced with, at least it hasn’t been. That was kind of my last musing in my first post is that that may be changing.
I’m not going to think of everything the same as someone else; and I certainly don’t want to play a few million matches of soccer until I experience every new soccer experience, so why should I be expected to do that with games?
Why are you insisting that experiencing a narrative must consist of exploring every branching path of the flow chart of possibility for the game? That’s never what I said.
Watching someone use some advanced technique to improve their play shouldn’t defeat the purpose of basketball for me, I just try to incorporate that into my play or think “oh that’s neat” or something and continue playing. Watching someone do something creative or something I didn’t know about in a game just improves the experience while also being entertaining.
Okay. That’s to be expected lol
That being said, I don’t play games much nor watch games anymore, so maybe the gaming YouTubers have compromised by enjoyment of gaming. But I also don’t watch or play sports anymore so it’s probably just the neccessity to have a job keeping me from using my free time on entertainment…
Not sure what you’re getting at here.
Clearly.
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As an example: the end of portal 2 and the “ending” of portal 1. You can only experience that stuff for the first time once. If you aren’t the player, your experience is cheapened. Your satisfaction for figuring out what to do in each of those moments is a powerful feeling that cannot be replicated by watching someone else do it. It’s diet vs regular.
if you can’t see a difference between figuring out what you’re supposed to do in those 2 specific moments I’m referring to for yourself as the player and just watching someone else do it, then there’s no hope for you to understand what I’m saying.
So you’re admitting your entire argument is “story mode games are different from competitive games”. That’s what you mean when you say that watching games is profoundly different from watching sports. Gotcha.
Yes.
No. Youre just trying to sound like a shit head.
No. It doesn’t make a difference to the viewer that does it, obviously they seem to not care, because they do it anyway…but it isn’t engaging with the content the way it should be engaged with.
The viewers aren’t the ones solving puzzles, making choices, thinking, getting rewarded, progressing, leveling up, etc.
it’s all second hand. The “player fantasy” isn’t their own when they watch someone else just do it on a stream or supercut. It’s fine, it’s just not a true experience. It’s a voyeur experience.
That isn’t clear at all. I’m literally saying that it is explicitly a different experience even if it’s similar. That’s my whole fucking point.
Watching isn’t playing. This is my whole fucking point.
It is. To what level is dependent on the game and what differences can be discerned from someone watching it be played vs playing it. There is a spectrum here and every game will have a different “watched experience”. Some will be closer or further from actually playing it yourself.
What are you talking about? Your comparing the difference of experience between watching 2 sports. Vs a sport and a machinima ? What is your point? None of this is an active experience?
Idk what omori is
This statement is utter nonsense.
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Where can you go to play organized football besides school?
There’s like three leagues in my suburban area, so I imagine quite a lot.
I believe there’s zero difference between sports and sports other than audience size and length of time the leagues have been around.
Now a single streamer playing a single player game and mostly engaging with the audience? That’s a different matter, and probably more like drive time radio than anything.
Oh look, welcome to my point
Literally like everywhere. If you were American you could replace that with baseball or American football or basketball, or from somewhere else it could be cricket or rugby or something. Regardless of where you are in the world, it’d be harder to not stumble into something sports related than to avoid them. You could go to wartorn Haiti 0.0001 seconds after a hurricane and an earthquake and there’d be groups of people playing soccer on the rubble.
Yeah, I said organized lol
Organized? How exactly? “Organized” varies by regional law or context. If it’s sponsored by a local sport union and the play is based around a set of rules, that would be organized enough for you, no? That’s the assumption I operated off of.
Why does being “organized” matter in the first place? Something doesn’t need to be professional league whatever for you to view it anyways. Neither sports nor video games.