Alberta Premier Danielle Smith says progressive politicians need to tone down their rhetoric following the attempted assassination of Donald Trump. As Sean Amato reports, Smith’s comments are also under the microscope. #ableg #cdnpoli
But you need evidence, or a strong argument, to determine cause and effect here. Sure, there’s a scenario you can imagine in which intolerant views are shared, proliferated, spread among the population, gain support, gain votes, gain power. But there are many liberal democracies in the world, and most are still holding onto their liberal democratic principles. The USA is heading for fascism, which is certainly terrifying, but what about the UK? What about France? All the other countries? Even the far right in these countries is forced to be circumspect in their intolerance due to public opinion, and their probes in the direction of fascist rhetoric and policy are weak at worst.
And if you want to couch this as a “paradox” then you end up with the “paradox of democracy” (it’s possible for people to vote for the removal of democracy). What you’re saying is not that we need to resist fascism because fascists are violent and a risk to people’s lives, but that we should resist fascism because they might be too convincing and get people to vote for them - and hence arguing that we should be less democratic in order to prevent their gaining power. So maybe you do think that’s a paradox. But in practice the way democracies solve this is by banning parties which are a threat to democracy and by having a high bar to do so because otherwise that will be wielded against all sorts. It would certainly be wielded against people who “oppose capitalism” (this we know from history).
Once again, we find that there’s a route through the “paradox” which neither capitulates entirely to fascists, nor capitulates entirely to the anti-democratic, illiberal tendencies of their most extreme opponents.
There are laws that try to prevent this, but those laws are weak and the legislature is captured.
And so we get to what I said originally: the “solution” to the so-called paradox is to have strong laws, for example a hard-to-modify constitution, which guarantee people’s rights. The formulation doesn’t have to be explicitly legal in nature to have a legal solution.
I think we’re at an ideological impasse, you make some fine points and once again there are some nuances I could disagree with here but I can largely accept your argument and I find that it’s consistent and valid from an (also valid) perspective rooted in liberal axioms.
I have an overlapping but different perspective that’s more rooted in leftists axioms.
There are historical examples and counter examples in either direction.
Although the UK and Europe aren’t as on much of a direct path to fascism as the current United States I think we probably have differing ideas on how fair and equal European society ultimately is (recognizing that we’re painting very many different cultures and political landscapes with a broad brush). However you’re not any less “correct” in your assessment as I am.
I sympathize with liberal ideals and that’s probably why I’m ideologically more of an anarchist than just a more general socialist or communist (I say that but pragmatically and in my day to day life and in terms of political action I’m far from it on account of how far outside of the Overton window it is, which makes it difficult, and I’m not “noble” enough to disadvantage myself within our existing systems to live out my ideals, at least not yet without sufficient financial safety and the quality of life guarantees it provides).
However, I’m far more of a collectivist than an individualist as I get older, and personal freedoms and personal justice interest me less than freedom and justice for all. That’s where the crux of our differences might be.
This turned out to be a thoughtful conversation, thanks.
Thanks yourself, I have a similar view of your position :)
I am undecided on collectivism versus individualism, and have been conflicted since a young age. As I get older I suspect both can produce good societies and bad societies and that, while I actually tend towards collectivism being the ultimate ideal, I don’t see inconsistent approaches as being particularly viable, which is where current western collectivist politics tends to sit - there’s no point, for example, in introducing rent controls. Either collectivise housing completely or work within the system to improve housing provision. Ultimately I think there are small advantages of (well-regulated) privatised housing (better choice), and small advantages in (well-managed) nationalised housing that are more significant, and that since the differences are fairly small, it’s not worth trying to push through a poorly managed middle-zone in the hope of achieving the ideal when that looks unlikely.
This was a digression but it was easy to explain and is similar to my thinking on other things…
But you need evidence, or a strong argument, to determine cause and effect here. Sure, there’s a scenario you can imagine in which intolerant views are shared, proliferated, spread among the population, gain support, gain votes, gain power. But there are many liberal democracies in the world, and most are still holding onto their liberal democratic principles. The USA is heading for fascism, which is certainly terrifying, but what about the UK? What about France? All the other countries? Even the far right in these countries is forced to be circumspect in their intolerance due to public opinion, and their probes in the direction of fascist rhetoric and policy are weak at worst.
And if you want to couch this as a “paradox” then you end up with the “paradox of democracy” (it’s possible for people to vote for the removal of democracy). What you’re saying is not that we need to resist fascism because fascists are violent and a risk to people’s lives, but that we should resist fascism because they might be too convincing and get people to vote for them - and hence arguing that we should be less democratic in order to prevent their gaining power. So maybe you do think that’s a paradox. But in practice the way democracies solve this is by banning parties which are a threat to democracy and by having a high bar to do so because otherwise that will be wielded against all sorts. It would certainly be wielded against people who “oppose capitalism” (this we know from history).
Once again, we find that there’s a route through the “paradox” which neither capitulates entirely to fascists, nor capitulates entirely to the anti-democratic, illiberal tendencies of their most extreme opponents.
And so we get to what I said originally: the “solution” to the so-called paradox is to have strong laws, for example a hard-to-modify constitution, which guarantee people’s rights. The formulation doesn’t have to be explicitly legal in nature to have a legal solution.
I think we’re at an ideological impasse, you make some fine points and once again there are some nuances I could disagree with here but I can largely accept your argument and I find that it’s consistent and valid from an (also valid) perspective rooted in liberal axioms.
I have an overlapping but different perspective that’s more rooted in leftists axioms.
There are historical examples and counter examples in either direction.
Although the UK and Europe aren’t as on much of a direct path to fascism as the current United States I think we probably have differing ideas on how fair and equal European society ultimately is (recognizing that we’re painting very many different cultures and political landscapes with a broad brush). However you’re not any less “correct” in your assessment as I am.
I sympathize with liberal ideals and that’s probably why I’m ideologically more of an anarchist than just a more general socialist or communist (I say that but pragmatically and in my day to day life and in terms of political action I’m far from it on account of how far outside of the Overton window it is, which makes it difficult, and I’m not “noble” enough to disadvantage myself within our existing systems to live out my ideals, at least not yet without sufficient financial safety and the quality of life guarantees it provides).
However, I’m far more of a collectivist than an individualist as I get older, and personal freedoms and personal justice interest me less than freedom and justice for all. That’s where the crux of our differences might be.
This turned out to be a thoughtful conversation, thanks.
Thanks yourself, I have a similar view of your position :)
I am undecided on collectivism versus individualism, and have been conflicted since a young age. As I get older I suspect both can produce good societies and bad societies and that, while I actually tend towards collectivism being the ultimate ideal, I don’t see inconsistent approaches as being particularly viable, which is where current western collectivist politics tends to sit - there’s no point, for example, in introducing rent controls. Either collectivise housing completely or work within the system to improve housing provision. Ultimately I think there are small advantages of (well-regulated) privatised housing (better choice), and small advantages in (well-managed) nationalised housing that are more significant, and that since the differences are fairly small, it’s not worth trying to push through a poorly managed middle-zone in the hope of achieving the ideal when that looks unlikely.
This was a digression but it was easy to explain and is similar to my thinking on other things…