Those are not Eco’s 14 points, those are a brand new set of points, unsupported and uncited, from an Anarchist’s perspective. Marxism in general would be considered Right-Wing in the eyes of the author, who again just made 9 blanket, unsupported vibes-based claims. The USSR and Marxism-Leninism only really hit one or two points of the espoused 14 from Eco, much fewer than the vast majority of current states.
Additionally, Bernard Henri Lévy, the author cited by the author of your article as the basis for the article, is a Zionist, and is anti-palestine. He’s also pro-American, and pro-liberal, not a leftist.
“Bernard-Henri Lévy has used the term in arguing that some European intellectuals have been infatuated with anti-Enlightenment theories and embraced a new absolutist ideology, one that is anti-liberal, anti-American, anti-imperialist, antisemitic and pro-Islamofascist.”
It seems to me that being anti-anti-imperialism, and being a Zionist yet attacking Marxism might call into question Lévy’s motives.
Did you actually read Ur-fascism from Umberto Eco, or did you just google “Marxism fascism” and grab one of the first results? Neither your previous comment nor this one have answered my question.
Why do I need to write a 20-page thesis on why tankies are fascists? If you’re a Tankie, and it seems like you are because you are being very defensive, what could I write that could convince you that tankies are fascists?
Let’s try this another way.
Do you personally believe that democracies are good? That law should be decided by people?
Or do you believe that authoritarians are the best way to rule?
Why do I need to write a 20-page thesis on why tankies are fascists? If you’re a Tankie, and it seems like you are because you are being very defensive, what could I write that could convince you that tankies are fascists?
I’m a Marxist, and you’ve called Marxist-Leninists fascists. By your definition, I am both a Tankie and a Fascist for wanting a democratically run Worker State. If you want to convince me of Marxism being fascist, answer the question I originally asked: how does Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, or the USSR, satisfy Umberto Eco’s 14 points on fascism? You linked an article referencing a Zionist and Imperialist as a good authority on why Marxism is fascist, I wonder why you consider Zionists good company, but Marxists to be evil fascists?
Let’s try this another way.
Do you personally believe that democracies are good? That law should be decided by people?
Every Marxist believes democracy is good and that law should be decided by the people. Since you like Wikipedia, you might want to read about how Democracy was structured in the USSR.
Or do you believe that authoritarians are the best way to rule?
Genuinely, what does this sentence even mean? Are you asking if I believe all important decisions should be made by unaccountable strong leaders? No, of course not, no Marxist does. If you mean I believe in having a government, then yes, I am a Marxist, not an Anarchist.
Great I was wrong, you are not a Marxist-Leninist.
By your definition, I am both a Tankie and a Fascist.
No, a Marxist-Leninist is not the same thing as a Marxist. A Marxist is critical of capitalism. They don’t say anything specific other than a socialist society is good. Which I generally agree with. A Marxist-Leninist goes into detail on top of that witch results in Fascist outcomes.
This whole “Marxist-Leninist are Marxists” thing is a fascist talking point. Of course fascists are going to co-opt the word “Marxist”, especially when it gets popular, it’s happened before and it will happen again. What is important is the outcomes of the ideology not the names.
Every Marxist believes democracy is good
I Agree. Glad you are pro-democracy. I don’t think you are a fascist or a tankie anymore.
Genuinely, what does this sentence even mean?
Sorry, trusted voice to text too much. You guessed the correct interpretation. I agree with your answer.
Great I was wrong, you are not a Marxist-Leninist.
I accept Lenin’s contributions to Marxism, so labels don’t really matter.
No, a Marxist-Leninist is not the same thing as a Marxist. A Marxist is critical of capitalism. They don’t say anything specific other than a socialist society is good. Which I generally agree with. A Marxist-Leninist goes into detail on top of that witch results in Fascist outcomes.
Incorrect. Marxism is categorized by critique of Capitalism, an adherence to Dialectical and Historical Materialism, and advocacy for the establishment of a Socialist Worker-government via Revolutionary Methods. This came from Marx, not Lenin. Marx was a fascist according to you, even if you try to white-wash him.
This whole “Marxist-Leninist are Marxists” thing is a fascist talking point. Of course fascists are going to co-opt the word “Marxist”, especially when it gets popular, it’s happened before and it will happen again. What is important is the outcomes of the ideology not the names.
No, it’s a Marxist talking-point. Explain exactly where we jump from Marxism to fascism with respect to what Lenin added, like his analysis of Imperialism.
I Agree. Glad you are pro-democracy. I don’t think you are a fascist or a tankie anymore.
Great, then Marxists, Marxist-Leninists, and the USSR were not fascist, glad you could come around to sense, instead of relying on Zionist fascists for your information.
Sorry, trusted voice to text too much. You guessed the correct interpretation. I agree with your answer.
Marxist-Leninists want a worker-government surrounding worker Soviets, or whole-process People’s Democracy. They do not want “authoritarianism.” Please read Marx, and Lenin. You can see where Lenin drew from, Lenin was a Marxist.
Please, just go through Eco’s points, you’ve been restating the same talking points espoused by Zionist fascists without engaging with Eco’s well-establisbed criterion.
Ok, if labels don’t matter, then why are you mad about me calling you a fascist? What can we possibly gain from this conversation at all? Also, I have changed my mind. This is totally Marxist-Leninist behavior, you’re a tankie and tankies are fascists.
It’s pretty clear that I meant the label of “Marxist” vs “Marxist-Leninist” doesn’t matter too much, the overwhelming majority of Marxists are Marxist-Leninists, because Lenin was an important Marxist. I am in no way a fascist, I want a democratic Worker-State.
As for the second bit, where you again repeat “Marxist-Leninists are fascists” without ever explaining why, despite this being several comments deep of you recommending Zionist articles, what’s the point? Are you ever going to answer a single question, or are you going to just throw Zionist talking points?
In a mocking voice: “I am not a Marxist-Leninist I’m just a Marxist who loves to throat Lenin’s sausage.” Common man.
Nice, you’re homophobic because I said I “accept Lenin’s contributions to Marxism.” Not only do you recommend Zionists, you are also homophobic. The mask really did peal off of you, huh?
Would you mind explaining where Lenin diverges from Marxism to Fascism? Have you actually read any of Lenin?
Yeah, I would mind. It would be a waste of my time because you don’t care. It really doesn’t matter what I say. Because you’ll just use your own personal definition for things instead of the commonly accepted definitions like you did with the Marxist-Leninist bit. We would literally need to agree on a dictionary before we could even begin a somewhat productive conversation.
Again what would I gain? You’re asking me to play a game of chess with you, but you and I both know the moment it looks bad for you. You’re going to flip the board and poop on the table. So why would I play at all?
As for the homophobic stuff. I’m a straight guy and I would happily throat Marx’s sausage. So there I canceled out the homophobia.
Yeah, I would mind. It would be a waste of my time because you don’t care. It really doesn’t matter what I say. Because you’ll just use your own personal definition for things instead of the commonly accepted definitions like you did with the Marxist-Leninist bit.
No, I specifically asked you to use Umberto Eco’s Ur-Fascism with the 14 points. That is the commonly accepted list of factors for fascism. Also entirely unaware of what you mean by the “Marxist-Leninist bit.” The overwhelming majority of Marxists also accept Lenin’s contributions to it, adding “-Leninist” is usually to distance from Maoists, MAGA Communists, and Pat-Socs, not to ensure Lenin’s ideas are added.
We would literally need to agree on a dictionary before we could even begin a somewhat productive conversation.
Eco’s 14 points, and Marx, Engels, and Lenin’s own words. Simple.
Again what would I gain? You’re asking me to play a game of chess with you, but you and I both know the moment it looks bad for you. You’re going to flip the board and poop on the table. So why would I play at all?
We don’t “both know that,” I have asked you to explain which of Eco’s 14 points applied to the USSR, Marxism, or Marxism-Leninism. You haven’t done that, so we can’t know. You would gain a productive conversation, I suppose, and I believe you would grow from it, but that’s neither here nor there at this point, because you can’t do what I have asked about a dozen times at this point.
As for the homophobic stuff. I’m a straight guy and I would happily throat Marx’s sausage. So there I canceled out the homophobia.
Still homophobic, and you still haven’t taken back the support for Zionists, makes me think you’re okay with Zionism as well.
As for the Marx bit, Marx would agree with Lenin’s contributions, such as Lenin’s analysis of how Capitalism takes on an international, Imperialist character. Marx himself reached a bit upon it, but Capitalism had not yet advanced enough in Marx’s time for him to observe it, merely predict it.
As it stands, I will personally be happy if you can either answer which of Eco’s 14 points apply to Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, and/or the USSR.
I would also accept you specifically pointing to where Lenin diverged from Leftism to fascism in his analysis of Marxism and expansion upon it.
Both tasks should be easy for you if you’re correct, but I have a feeling you’ve been dodging because you know you’re wrong, and can’t admit to it.
Those are not Eco’s 14 points, those are a brand new set of points, unsupported and uncited, from an Anarchist’s perspective. Marxism in general would be considered Right-Wing in the eyes of the author, who again just made 9 blanket, unsupported vibes-based claims. The USSR and Marxism-Leninism only really hit one or two points of the espoused 14 from Eco, much fewer than the vast majority of current states.
Additionally, Bernard Henri Lévy, the author cited by the author of your article as the basis for the article, is a Zionist, and is anti-palestine. He’s also pro-American, and pro-liberal, not a leftist.
“Bernard-Henri Lévy has used the term in arguing that some European intellectuals have been infatuated with anti-Enlightenment theories and embraced a new absolutist ideology, one that is anti-liberal, anti-American, anti-imperialist, antisemitic and pro-Islamofascist.”
It seems to me that being anti-anti-imperialism, and being a Zionist yet attacking Marxism might call into question Lévy’s motives.
Did you actually read Ur-fascism from Umberto Eco, or did you just google “Marxism fascism” and grab one of the first results? Neither your previous comment nor this one have answered my question.
Why do I need to write a 20-page thesis on why tankies are fascists? If you’re a Tankie, and it seems like you are because you are being very defensive, what could I write that could convince you that tankies are fascists?
Let’s try this another way.
Do you personally believe that democracies are good? That law should be decided by people?
Or do you believe that authoritarians are the best way to rule?
I’m a Marxist, and you’ve called Marxist-Leninists fascists. By your definition, I am both a Tankie and a Fascist for wanting a democratically run Worker State. If you want to convince me of Marxism being fascist, answer the question I originally asked: how does Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, or the USSR, satisfy Umberto Eco’s 14 points on fascism? You linked an article referencing a Zionist and Imperialist as a good authority on why Marxism is fascist, I wonder why you consider Zionists good company, but Marxists to be evil fascists?
Every Marxist believes democracy is good and that law should be decided by the people. Since you like Wikipedia, you might want to read about how Democracy was structured in the USSR.
Genuinely, what does this sentence even mean? Are you asking if I believe all important decisions should be made by unaccountable strong leaders? No, of course not, no Marxist does. If you mean I believe in having a government, then yes, I am a Marxist, not an Anarchist.
Great I was wrong, you are not a Marxist-Leninist.
No, a Marxist-Leninist is not the same thing as a Marxist. A Marxist is critical of capitalism. They don’t say anything specific other than a socialist society is good. Which I generally agree with. A Marxist-Leninist goes into detail on top of that witch results in Fascist outcomes.
This whole “Marxist-Leninist are Marxists” thing is a fascist talking point. Of course fascists are going to co-opt the word “Marxist”, especially when it gets popular, it’s happened before and it will happen again. What is important is the outcomes of the ideology not the names.
I Agree. Glad you are pro-democracy. I don’t think you are a fascist or a tankie anymore.
Sorry, trusted voice to text too much. You guessed the correct interpretation. I agree with your answer.
I accept Lenin’s contributions to Marxism, so labels don’t really matter.
Incorrect. Marxism is categorized by critique of Capitalism, an adherence to Dialectical and Historical Materialism, and advocacy for the establishment of a Socialist Worker-government via Revolutionary Methods. This came from Marx, not Lenin. Marx was a fascist according to you, even if you try to white-wash him.
No, it’s a Marxist talking-point. Explain exactly where we jump from Marxism to fascism with respect to what Lenin added, like his analysis of Imperialism.
Great, then Marxists, Marxist-Leninists, and the USSR were not fascist, glad you could come around to sense, instead of relying on Zionist fascists for your information.
Marxist-Leninists want a worker-government surrounding worker Soviets, or whole-process People’s Democracy. They do not want “authoritarianism.” Please read Marx, and Lenin. You can see where Lenin drew from, Lenin was a Marxist.
Please, just go through Eco’s points, you’ve been restating the same talking points espoused by Zionist fascists without engaging with Eco’s well-establisbed criterion.
Removed by mod
No, I have been entirely consistent.
It’s pretty clear that I meant the label of “Marxist” vs “Marxist-Leninist” doesn’t matter too much, the overwhelming majority of Marxists are Marxist-Leninists, because Lenin was an important Marxist. I am in no way a fascist, I want a democratic Worker-State.
As for the second bit, where you again repeat “Marxist-Leninists are fascists” without ever explaining why, despite this being several comments deep of you recommending Zionist articles, what’s the point? Are you ever going to answer a single question, or are you going to just throw Zionist talking points?
Nice, you’re homophobic because I said I “accept Lenin’s contributions to Marxism.” Not only do you recommend Zionists, you are also homophobic. The mask really did peal off of you, huh?
Would you mind explaining where Lenin diverges from Marxism to Fascism? Have you actually read any of Lenin?
Yeah, I would mind. It would be a waste of my time because you don’t care. It really doesn’t matter what I say. Because you’ll just use your own personal definition for things instead of the commonly accepted definitions like you did with the Marxist-Leninist bit. We would literally need to agree on a dictionary before we could even begin a somewhat productive conversation.
Again what would I gain? You’re asking me to play a game of chess with you, but you and I both know the moment it looks bad for you. You’re going to flip the board and poop on the table. So why would I play at all?
As for the homophobic stuff. I’m a straight guy and I would happily throat Marx’s sausage. So there I canceled out the homophobia.
No, I specifically asked you to use Umberto Eco’s Ur-Fascism with the 14 points. That is the commonly accepted list of factors for fascism. Also entirely unaware of what you mean by the “Marxist-Leninist bit.” The overwhelming majority of Marxists also accept Lenin’s contributions to it, adding “-Leninist” is usually to distance from Maoists, MAGA Communists, and Pat-Socs, not to ensure Lenin’s ideas are added.
Eco’s 14 points, and Marx, Engels, and Lenin’s own words. Simple.
We don’t “both know that,” I have asked you to explain which of Eco’s 14 points applied to the USSR, Marxism, or Marxism-Leninism. You haven’t done that, so we can’t know. You would gain a productive conversation, I suppose, and I believe you would grow from it, but that’s neither here nor there at this point, because you can’t do what I have asked about a dozen times at this point.
Still homophobic, and you still haven’t taken back the support for Zionists, makes me think you’re okay with Zionism as well.
As for the Marx bit, Marx would agree with Lenin’s contributions, such as Lenin’s analysis of how Capitalism takes on an international, Imperialist character. Marx himself reached a bit upon it, but Capitalism had not yet advanced enough in Marx’s time for him to observe it, merely predict it.
As it stands, I will personally be happy if you can either answer which of Eco’s 14 points apply to Marxism, Marxism-Leninism, and/or the USSR.
I would also accept you specifically pointing to where Lenin diverged from Leftism to fascism in his analysis of Marxism and expansion upon it.
Both tasks should be easy for you if you’re correct, but I have a feeling you’ve been dodging because you know you’re wrong, and can’t admit to it.