I’m not from the US, so I’m curious why Americans still wants him back. I always see him as a bad mouthed guy and was worse when he lost in 2020. But feel free to change my mind. This question is also for non-trump supporters who can think of one thing (if you can) on why he’s good for the top position.
You claim that the Ukrainian government are Nazis 🤡
Opinion disregarded.
Ah yes. With their Jewish leader whose relatives died in the Holocaust…
They definitely drank the Russian vodka…
So, what exactly are you trying to say?
I thought the narrative ‘if you are a Jew you can’t be a nazi’ stopped after the events in Gaza, where people (left leaning people I think) accuse Netanyahu of being new Hitler and Israel of genocide or something like that, or do we still use it?
What I’m trying to say, and I could say in a half dozen ways, is there is no evidence Ukraine is nazi state, but yes valid point: Bibi is a piece of shit, but I also don’t think he’s antisemitic as Russia claims Zelenskyy is.
There is, in fact, much more evidence that Russia is.
Please see my other comment in this thread, it would be easier to discuss under one comment than to split it in multiple :)
Well, I guess one can find a reason to accuse almost anyone of almost anything, so let’s compare the evidence against current ukr government and current rus government (but again let’s do that in that other thread please, I already gave examples of nazism from current government there).
I’m not really sure what thread you’re talking about, but I’m content with where I am here :)
There are documentaries showing a rise of right-wing neo-nazi groups in Russia as early as 2000s. Aleksandr Dugin is a self-described neo-nazi and essentially Putin’s right-hand Rasputin. The entire culture of Russia has become heavily anti-immigrant. Wagner itself had nazi origins.. Putin is committing now just an attempted genocide in Ukraine but also one in Russia as he purges ethnic minorities to the front-lines while he keeps those middle-class in St. Petersburg and Moscow largely sheltered from the war. Forgetting the fact that Russia now has one of the worst ratings for Corruption and Journalistic Transparency in the world, matching the likes of the Taliban in Afghanistan — LOL.
Oh and of course Putin took a page out of Hitler’s book when he invaded Poland under the false pretenses of protecting Ethnic German and invaded a sovereign neighboring nation. Nothing tops the wrongful, aggressive invasion of a neighboring state as they try to annex territory and commit documented war crime after documented war crime.
Yeah yeah, I know people talk of Azov, but that’s <1% of UAF. It would be no different if the shit-stains under The Base, Oathkeepers, 1%ers, Proud Boys, Boogaloo boys all joined banners alongside the rest of the country to fight against a foreign invader, such as Russia.
If you’re a Russian or Russian sympathizer, understand the majority of the world both population and economics-wise is not on your side. You’re relegating yourself to being global pariah akin to North Korea. A laughing stock.
Ok, sure :)
I never heard of this guy, so thanks for the info. He doesn’t seem to be anyone really important though, I quickly read some info about him and he just seems to be an “influencer” to me if I may use this word, not sure why you consider him Putin’s right hand…
Are you saying that being anti-immigrant is somehow equal to being a nazi? I haven’t yet heard such a take.
Anyway, I found this article from UN (which was published just 3 years ago, I don’t think it can be considered outdated already?) which says Russia is actually in top 5 countries by the amount of immigrants.
https://news.un.org/ru/story/2021/01/1394392
Yeqh, this one I can believe.
Well, if you can call this a genocide, then I can definitely call the kidnappings of people from the streets and forcefully sending them to die to frontlines by Zelensky’s regime a genocide. And a Ukrainian right now is more likely to die from that, than from some shelling or otherwise becoming a civil casualty.
I’m not sure which exactly index you are talking about (I’m not denying it though, this seems quite plausible to me), but I’m sure that if this index is in any way reliable, Ukraine would be somewhere quite close, there is just as much corruption and almost just as little journalistic freedom.
Well yeah his remark about Poland in that interview was indeed stupid.
Do you think Ukrainian side does not commit “war crimes”? Civilians in Belgorod (and other Russian neighbouring cities) are regularly dying from Ukrainian attacks.
Yeah this is one of my arguments :)
Glad we can at least agree that those guys are nazis. What do you think about Zelensky (head of state!) making and publishing photos with their commander? Does it look like endorsment of nazism from the highest level of government?
Second question, what do you think about Stepan Bandera?
I am Ukrainian actually. I do not sympathize with Russia, I think everybody is equally bad (except for those who at least try to finish the war, which right now is Trump and Orban).
Read further then. Familiarize yourself with the Foundations of Geopolitics, the very geopolitical playbook Putin is carrying out as we speak.
Immigration occurring != Russians liking immigration. It’s a convenient scapegoat for the right-wing extremists in the nation no differently than here in the United States.
https://jamestown.org/program/anti-immigrant-sentiments-in-russia-lurk-behind-deep-social-issues/
Of course if you’re in a state of war, things change. Even the US clamped down on the press during WWII. The stats for Russia however were pre-war, however. Yes, Ukraine is low on the list, but above Russia.
Does that make Ukraine Nazis? Is there any evidence whatsoever that Zelenskyy himself as a Jew and whose ancestors died in the Holocaust is, himself, an anti-Semite or Nazi-sympathizer? Does that justify Putin’s aggressive invasion of a sovereign nation just like Hitler did with Poland? Any reasonable person would say of course not.
Yeah, I think they probably have. I also think the Allies of WWII committed war crimes, too, but it doesn’t change that their side was the more righteous cause. I also think, since you cited the UN, that all evidence points to Russia committing the vast majority of war crimes.. Naturally, proportionality matters. Let’s keep in mind that those Citizens of Belgorad or Ukraine’s Crimea would not be hit if Russia decided to end its imperial efforts. So naturally, any death in this war is a direct result of Russia beginning said war.
I already explained this which went ignored: Ever hear the adage, “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”?
I call bullshit :) — I’d love proof of your Ukrainian nationality; I otherwise do not believe it. Boy, are you in the deep, deep minority if you are. Orban and Trump can definitely settle this war tomorrow — by giving Putin what he wants and expecting Ukraine to capitulate lol.
Well, obviously I can’t read it in a reasonable amount of time to continue this discussion, so maybe instead you would be so kind to tell me what exactly from that book makes you say that?
So, you must like immigration in order to not be nazi? This seems like an even weirder take for me, really… I think it is mostly western countries that are actively supporting immigration, it doesn’t really happen on a similar scale in the rest of the world… Middle east, most of Asia (Japan, South Korea, etc.), are they all nazis by that logic?..
So as I said, nearby.
Your previous paragraph is talking about corruption and journalist freedom, I’ve never said that this is what makes Ukrainian government Nazis…
Well, posting photos with Azov brigade’s commander (that even you agreed are nazi), seems to be a good indicator of being a nazi-supporter, wouldn’t you say?
What about him supporting Stepan Bandera (you still didn’t say what you think about that great guy btw), another nazi?
But where did I say that??
It was not even me who brought nazism into this discussion, some guy read my other comments and tried to somehow invalidate my opinion using the fact that I say that Ukrainian government is nazi (btw it’s a fallacy and doesn’t work like that), I’ve never said that it justified anything, I’m just arguing that nazism in Ukrainian government is very real and widespread. Please don’t put words in my mouth :)
Well, we will know how much war crimes were commited by each side after the war, now it’s just propaganda from both sides.
Anyway, saying that Ukraine is more righteous to commit war crimes is not cool and dehumanizing.
Why stop at that, we might go even further back and say that there would be no war at all if there were no nazism in Ukraine…
Anyway, going back into history and pointing fingers can be done indefinitely, so this is not very productive IMHO. I prefer to discuss what is happening right now.
And anyway, I did not say that Russia is not to blame for the war. It doesn’t make it the only one who is responsible for what is happening right now. It is not Putin thanks to whom people are afraid to leave their homes because they might get forcefully sent to the army, it’s Zelensky.
So, would I be correct to rephrase this as “it’s okay to be nazi (well, I’d argue that being friend with nazi and promoting them makes you nazi as well) as long as it helps you against your enemy”?
Because if so - we don’t actually need to continue arguing, you seem to not deny Ukrainian government being nazis but instead trying to justify it… I’m only trying to say they are nazis, I’m not trying to say whether it is justified or not :)
Well, I’m not going to give you a scan of my passport, sorry :)
But what exactly makes you feel so? Is admitting your own government is nazi what makes it so unbelivable? I’m sure Americans will be saying the same if Trump gets elected…
As for saying that I’m in a deep minority, again what makes you think so? Do you really think all the people that are being kidnapped on the streets and get sent to die have any sympathy for Zelensky??
You may not believe me, but every single Ukrainian friend I have hates Zelensky, because thanks to him, either they or their father/husband/brother/etc. might be caught on a street and sent to die at any time.
The absolute majority of people who support him are those who will not be the ones dying in the war, or at least those who believe that they won’t. Which btw includes you and any other foreigner who supports him. It’s cool and easy to support a war, when you are not forced to die in it.
I didn’t bring it into the discussion, but sure, let’s talk about it :)
What is your opinion on Azov brigade? Are those guys cool and not nazis? What about Ukrainian government (and Zelensky in particular) endorsing them (by publicly posting photos with them for example, etc.)?
What is your opinion on Stepan Bandera, that cool guy and totally not nazi who fought for Ukrainian independence, and who is being glorified in Ukraine and after whom streets are renamed?
Those two are just the most famous examples :)