What you’re talking about, with families, communes, or other small communities, IS STILL WORK. It might not be compensated with money but it is compensated, usually with social capital or reputation. I do things for you and then maybe some time in the future you return the favour. All money does is allow me to (pardon the pun) cash in that favour on my own terms and potentially with someone other than the person I originally worked for.
What’s the problem with these informal economies (favours for favours)? They do not scale! As soon as the community is large enough that not everyone knows each other (the networks grow too large) then you run into the problem of being unable to punish free riders. If you do a favour for uncle Ted and then later uncle Ted refuses to lift a finger for you, you can punish him by telling the rest of the family that he’s selfish. However, you walking into uncle Ted’s office and telling his boss (who doesn’t know you) about it is unlikely to go over well.
“If I didn’t need to make money to live” is a non-starter. If you built a huge society with free food, housing, health care, internet and all that for everyone (all needs met) then you’d get millions of people choosing to smoke cannabis and play video games all day. The only way to get “free everything” society to work is with extremely small groups where reputation and social capital stand in for monetary compensation.
Lastly, I need to make a point about the individual and their choice to work for free for others or not. Take the example of an artist (say, a digital painter). They may be happy to stream on Twitch and give away all the art they create for free (with their Patreon revenue covering their living expenses). However, how likely do you think they are to take on a huge commissioned video game project for free? I’ll tell you: extremely unlikely. The free art is the art that the artist wants to produce. Commissioned art that follows narrow requirements for (say) character designs, settings, etc. is completely different: it’s work because it’s not the kind of art the artist chose to make.
Your while argument about it still being work is basically what I was driving at, so thank you. You can perform work, without being paid for it.
I would disagree that such things are not scalable. In your mind maybe, since you seem to be hellbent on punishing those that do not contribute. If you’re instead more caring and compassionate, and realize that many jobs are little more than make-work (where you’re there simply to do thing that otherwise wouldn’t be done, especially in a society without currency), then the actual workforce doesn’t need to be nearly as large. A huge portion of labor is dedicated to accounting for and compensating others for their contributions. Think about it. Pretty much all accountants, tax adjusters, government jobs relating to dispensing funds for unemployment, retirement, disabilities, etc. A huge portion of the workforce isn’t necessary in that context. Oversight to ensure things get finished is still needed, just to ensure that people stay organized working on larger projects, but nobody needs to worry about scheduling or working out how many hours + overtime you accrue. Most shops which currently warehouse and sell products, like grocery stores, all their cashier’s and such, gone. Only direct service restaurants need anyone working there for customer interactions. A huge portion of the workforce would end up “unemployed” (with nothing to do), but retain all the benefits of having a job. Food, shelter, healthcare…
People would be free to educate themselves with college or university without the crippling debts associated with such endeavours. They could play to their strengths and do what they love doing, rather than what they’re forced to do because they selected a major without fully understanding the job that they would be doing after graduation, and don’t have enough money to go back and pick something they actually like doing.
As much as I don’t agree with you, I understand what you’re driving at. You’re stuck on personal responsibility for your contributions, so that people don’t freeload along with everyone else. I understand and I accept there will be freeloaders. I’m not angry about it, it’s a fact. All I’m trying to express is that I believe that there will be enough able and willing people doing the job anyways, that we would be fine. Taking pride in their local communities, their achievements, the state/region/province in which they live, and the country they live in, to want to make it the best it can be. That motivation, IMO, is enough to keep things going.
Call me an idealistic fool. Think what you want of me. It’s fine. I don’t take offense. I know it won’t happen so the entire argument is moot. The ruling elite class will their hundreds of billions in accumulated wealth won’t allow anything to threaten their dominance over our day to day lives. Their ability to tell us where to go and what to do as a function of our “jobs” which are inexorably linked to our livelihoods and survival.
I’m not hellbent on punishing people and I’m not lacking in compassion. I have a great deal of compassion for good people who are genuinely suffering and worse off through no fault of their own. I have been volunteering for 7 years as a tutor for newcomer families (mostly refugee families from Somalia).
These families are far from what I’d call free riders. They are tenacious and eager to contribute to society. They also happen to have a very strong community, unlike the neighbourhood I live in (more on that later).
The ruling elite aren’t the reason it won’t happen. The disappearance of local community is. I’m only 40 years old and yet I’ve noticed a DRAMATIC change in the neighbourhood where I grew up (and still live). When I was a kid everyone was kind and friendly. There were tons of other kids around like me.
Now there are hardly any kids around. I go for a walk and all I see are people my age or older, usually walking a dog with a scowl on their face. Society’s institutions are gone or moribund. Hardly anyone is friendly. Everyone is just looking out for themselves and treating their neighbours with cold suspicion.
This isn’t just my personal feelings or my weird neighbourhood. It’s everywhere and people are talking about it, if not always in the spotlight.
There are just so many people who are only in it for themselves and wealth has little to do with it. It’s the lack of community bonds. I would love to hear how a change in the political system could fix that but I won’t hold my breath for it to happen.
We’re basically the same age. That’s entertaining to me. I can’t really explain why, it just is.
I want to strongly express that I do understand where you’re coming from. I get it.
I still think that a non-monetary society would work. Again, it will not be tried, but I believe it would work.
At this point however, I believe that you understand me and I understand you, we simply disagree. That’s fine, it’s what makes society great and life worth living; our differences. It would be so boring if we all thought the same and had the same opinions.
I want to thank you for the discourse and echoes my gratitude for the civil discussion. I really do mean that, though, through text, it might seem like sarcasm, I promise that it is not.
I wish you the best and I hope you have a great and productive life ahead, good fortune, and good health. As I’m sure you know, at our age, health starts getting harder to maintain.
At the end of the day, despite our differences, I like you. You’re articulate and well spoken and you’ve been a pleasure to have a conversation with. If you want to discuss anything further, feel free, or if you want to take this off of the public view, I believe I have my matrix account linked in my profile. I would welcome anything further you wish to say or discuss.
What you’re talking about, with families, communes, or other small communities, IS STILL WORK. It might not be compensated with money but it is compensated, usually with social capital or reputation. I do things for you and then maybe some time in the future you return the favour. All money does is allow me to (pardon the pun) cash in that favour on my own terms and potentially with someone other than the person I originally worked for.
What’s the problem with these informal economies (favours for favours)? They do not scale! As soon as the community is large enough that not everyone knows each other (the networks grow too large) then you run into the problem of being unable to punish free riders. If you do a favour for uncle Ted and then later uncle Ted refuses to lift a finger for you, you can punish him by telling the rest of the family that he’s selfish. However, you walking into uncle Ted’s office and telling his boss (who doesn’t know you) about it is unlikely to go over well.
“If I didn’t need to make money to live” is a non-starter. If you built a huge society with free food, housing, health care, internet and all that for everyone (all needs met) then you’d get millions of people choosing to smoke cannabis and play video games all day. The only way to get “free everything” society to work is with extremely small groups where reputation and social capital stand in for monetary compensation.
Lastly, I need to make a point about the individual and their choice to work for free for others or not. Take the example of an artist (say, a digital painter). They may be happy to stream on Twitch and give away all the art they create for free (with their Patreon revenue covering their living expenses). However, how likely do you think they are to take on a huge commissioned video game project for free? I’ll tell you: extremely unlikely. The free art is the art that the artist wants to produce. Commissioned art that follows narrow requirements for (say) character designs, settings, etc. is completely different: it’s work because it’s not the kind of art the artist chose to make.
Your while argument about it still being work is basically what I was driving at, so thank you. You can perform work, without being paid for it.
I would disagree that such things are not scalable. In your mind maybe, since you seem to be hellbent on punishing those that do not contribute. If you’re instead more caring and compassionate, and realize that many jobs are little more than make-work (where you’re there simply to do thing that otherwise wouldn’t be done, especially in a society without currency), then the actual workforce doesn’t need to be nearly as large. A huge portion of labor is dedicated to accounting for and compensating others for their contributions. Think about it. Pretty much all accountants, tax adjusters, government jobs relating to dispensing funds for unemployment, retirement, disabilities, etc. A huge portion of the workforce isn’t necessary in that context. Oversight to ensure things get finished is still needed, just to ensure that people stay organized working on larger projects, but nobody needs to worry about scheduling or working out how many hours + overtime you accrue. Most shops which currently warehouse and sell products, like grocery stores, all their cashier’s and such, gone. Only direct service restaurants need anyone working there for customer interactions. A huge portion of the workforce would end up “unemployed” (with nothing to do), but retain all the benefits of having a job. Food, shelter, healthcare…
People would be free to educate themselves with college or university without the crippling debts associated with such endeavours. They could play to their strengths and do what they love doing, rather than what they’re forced to do because they selected a major without fully understanding the job that they would be doing after graduation, and don’t have enough money to go back and pick something they actually like doing.
As much as I don’t agree with you, I understand what you’re driving at. You’re stuck on personal responsibility for your contributions, so that people don’t freeload along with everyone else. I understand and I accept there will be freeloaders. I’m not angry about it, it’s a fact. All I’m trying to express is that I believe that there will be enough able and willing people doing the job anyways, that we would be fine. Taking pride in their local communities, their achievements, the state/region/province in which they live, and the country they live in, to want to make it the best it can be. That motivation, IMO, is enough to keep things going.
Call me an idealistic fool. Think what you want of me. It’s fine. I don’t take offense. I know it won’t happen so the entire argument is moot. The ruling elite class will their hundreds of billions in accumulated wealth won’t allow anything to threaten their dominance over our day to day lives. Their ability to tell us where to go and what to do as a function of our “jobs” which are inexorably linked to our livelihoods and survival.
It won’t happen, they won’t let it.
I’m not hellbent on punishing people and I’m not lacking in compassion. I have a great deal of compassion for good people who are genuinely suffering and worse off through no fault of their own. I have been volunteering for 7 years as a tutor for newcomer families (mostly refugee families from Somalia).
These families are far from what I’d call free riders. They are tenacious and eager to contribute to society. They also happen to have a very strong community, unlike the neighbourhood I live in (more on that later).
The ruling elite aren’t the reason it won’t happen. The disappearance of local community is. I’m only 40 years old and yet I’ve noticed a DRAMATIC change in the neighbourhood where I grew up (and still live). When I was a kid everyone was kind and friendly. There were tons of other kids around like me.
Now there are hardly any kids around. I go for a walk and all I see are people my age or older, usually walking a dog with a scowl on their face. Society’s institutions are gone or moribund. Hardly anyone is friendly. Everyone is just looking out for themselves and treating their neighbours with cold suspicion.
This isn’t just my personal feelings or my weird neighbourhood. It’s everywhere and people are talking about it, if not always in the spotlight.
There are just so many people who are only in it for themselves and wealth has little to do with it. It’s the lack of community bonds. I would love to hear how a change in the political system could fix that but I won’t hold my breath for it to happen.
We’re basically the same age. That’s entertaining to me. I can’t really explain why, it just is.
I want to strongly express that I do understand where you’re coming from. I get it.
I still think that a non-monetary society would work. Again, it will not be tried, but I believe it would work.
At this point however, I believe that you understand me and I understand you, we simply disagree. That’s fine, it’s what makes society great and life worth living; our differences. It would be so boring if we all thought the same and had the same opinions.
I want to thank you for the discourse and echoes my gratitude for the civil discussion. I really do mean that, though, through text, it might seem like sarcasm, I promise that it is not.
I wish you the best and I hope you have a great and productive life ahead, good fortune, and good health. As I’m sure you know, at our age, health starts getting harder to maintain.
At the end of the day, despite our differences, I like you. You’re articulate and well spoken and you’ve been a pleasure to have a conversation with. If you want to discuss anything further, feel free, or if you want to take this off of the public view, I believe I have my matrix account linked in my profile. I would welcome anything further you wish to say or discuss.
Be well.