And the fallacy your employing in the false equivalence. Just because your parents had the benevolence to allow different colored people into their public places and history lessons doesn’t mean they see them as equals.
The definition of racism is the belief that one race is inherently better than another. Good enough to share spaces and history books but not to mix blood doesn’t scream “we are all humans and equals”.
So it’s not a far leap to assume that your parent only accepts other races as far as their society of context has gone.
So it’s not a huge leap to assume which side of the photo they would’ve been on if their society of context was the one from the photo.
Obviously your parent would’ve been sitting at the table in defiance of that society’s cultural norms, defending their personal beliefs
These purity tests and shaming celebrations aren’t helpful.
They were never helpful when they were done to minorities. Effective for a time? Yes. But it galvanized.
I don’t need a galvanized enemy. I don’t need one that believes nothing will ever be good enough because a past sin means forever being a sinner.
We need discourse, persuasion and actual rhetoric.
I’m not saying bad is good. I’m saying effective isn’t the same as feeling righteous.
My parents aren’t who they were. But these tactics aren’t what changed them.
These tactics look like theyre far more about the feels than they are about changing things. And, no, I’m not defending gradualism. And my parents learned. But shame was never what did it.
I’m not the right person to be arguing tactics with, that wasn’t my point. I just pointed out a fallacy in your argument since you did so in theirs, in the spirit of equality.
That being said I do think there’s room for all kinds of relativism in our society, but I don’t think you can apply relativism to racism. You either believe someone is a complete human just like yourself even if they happen to have more or less melanin - or you don’t believe that. There is no halfway point.
Now you can use your persuasion tactic of choice to walk people to that conclusion, but I believe that anything short of that is still racism and exclusion but with caveats.
Either/Or thinking on race only gets so far. If a person thinks all acts can be objectively judged as racist, not racist, or not racially relevant… Then they’d be wrong.
Because it’s not just white folk that are complicated. It’s everyone. And there are differences of opinion (and history) within communities.
Some acts are overt. Some are obvious to the trained observer. And some… Will be met with varying reactions.
Whether an act has racial implications at all, will also be in dispute.
Believing in equality isn’t the same as acting on it. Belief isn’t the metric. Behavior is.
My parents believed and taught equality. They “just” thought the races should be separate. That that was a racist attitude was lost on them until it was forced.
I’ve had blind spots. I’ll find more. We all have them.
Listening, reading, searching our attitudes… Questioning why we did things how we did… This is how we keep momentum.
White certanties of virtue isn’t the progress people think it is.
I think that when it comes to race there’s only a binary possibility.
Your parents held a belief that mixing races was wrong. What was at the root of that belief? Some races are inherently not good enough or clean enough for their family, children or grandchildren. That is the very definition of racism. Your parents were racists, just not on the level of a clan member. There can be varying degrees of racism, but you either hold racist beliefs or you don’t.
That’s the crux of the argument here;
I think that if you hold racist beliefs you are racist
You think that a non-racist can hold racist beliefs.
I would love to hear an argument that changes my mind but so far I haven’t heard one.
That’s not my point. I am saying to a large degree science has shown that implicit bias is real. That unconscious biases show up among all groups, especially if given the right priming.
And based on that, we all have times it shows up. Whether we know it or not. Whether we like it or not.
This is not to drain the conversation of its relevance. It only enhances the urgency and importance of the conversations.
But I’m not into this either/or because this is a gradient. Or if it’s either/or then it’s 99+% of the population failing the test. If that’s the line, there’s an honesty to it.
And implicit bias, at its core, is based on belief. Even if transitory.
Yeah also I grew up in a world that was much more openly racist than the one of today so I’ll catch myself having stereotyping intrusive thoughts about dumb stuff people will do and I’ll be like, “no x type of person isn’t the only type that cuts you off in traffic, dumbass”. I don’t think that’s a belief though.
Just like I don’t think that having intrusive thoughts about jumping off a ledge means your suicidal.
And the fallacy your employing in the false equivalence. Just because your parents had the benevolence to allow different colored people into their public places and history lessons doesn’t mean they see them as equals.
The definition of racism is the belief that one race is inherently better than another. Good enough to share spaces and history books but not to mix blood doesn’t scream “we are all humans and equals”.
So it’s not a far leap to assume that your parent only accepts other races as far as their society of context has gone.
So it’s not a huge leap to assume which side of the photo they would’ve been on if their society of context was the one from the photo.
Obviously your parent would’ve been sitting at the table in defiance of that society’s cultural norms, defending their personal beliefs
…right?
These purity tests and shaming celebrations aren’t helpful.
They were never helpful when they were done to minorities. Effective for a time? Yes. But it galvanized.
I don’t need a galvanized enemy. I don’t need one that believes nothing will ever be good enough because a past sin means forever being a sinner.
We need discourse, persuasion and actual rhetoric.
I’m not saying bad is good. I’m saying effective isn’t the same as feeling righteous.
My parents aren’t who they were. But these tactics aren’t what changed them.
These tactics look like theyre far more about the feels than they are about changing things. And, no, I’m not defending gradualism. And my parents learned. But shame was never what did it.
I’m not the right person to be arguing tactics with, that wasn’t my point. I just pointed out a fallacy in your argument since you did so in theirs, in the spirit of equality.
That being said I do think there’s room for all kinds of relativism in our society, but I don’t think you can apply relativism to racism. You either believe someone is a complete human just like yourself even if they happen to have more or less melanin - or you don’t believe that. There is no halfway point.
Now you can use your persuasion tactic of choice to walk people to that conclusion, but I believe that anything short of that is still racism and exclusion but with caveats.
Either/Or thinking on race only gets so far. If a person thinks all acts can be objectively judged as racist, not racist, or not racially relevant… Then they’d be wrong.
Because it’s not just white folk that are complicated. It’s everyone. And there are differences of opinion (and history) within communities.
Some acts are overt. Some are obvious to the trained observer. And some… Will be met with varying reactions.
Whether an act has racial implications at all, will also be in dispute.
Believing in equality isn’t the same as acting on it. Belief isn’t the metric. Behavior is.
My parents believed and taught equality. They “just” thought the races should be separate. That that was a racist attitude was lost on them until it was forced.
I’ve had blind spots. I’ll find more. We all have them.
Listening, reading, searching our attitudes… Questioning why we did things how we did… This is how we keep momentum.
White certanties of virtue isn’t the progress people think it is.
I think that when it comes to race there’s only a binary possibility.
Your parents held a belief that mixing races was wrong. What was at the root of that belief? Some races are inherently not good enough or clean enough for their family, children or grandchildren. That is the very definition of racism. Your parents were racists, just not on the level of a clan member. There can be varying degrees of racism, but you either hold racist beliefs or you don’t.
That’s the crux of the argument here;
I think that if you hold racist beliefs you are racist
You think that a non-racist can hold racist beliefs.
I would love to hear an argument that changes my mind but so far I haven’t heard one.
That’s not my point. I am saying to a large degree science has shown that implicit bias is real. That unconscious biases show up among all groups, especially if given the right priming.
And based on that, we all have times it shows up. Whether we know it or not. Whether we like it or not.
This is not to drain the conversation of its relevance. It only enhances the urgency and importance of the conversations.
But I’m not into this either/or because this is a gradient. Or if it’s either/or then it’s 99+% of the population failing the test. If that’s the line, there’s an honesty to it.
And implicit bias, at its core, is based on belief. Even if transitory.
I wouldn’t go as far as 99+ but yes, many people have beliefs that put them in that boat. I wasn’t even excluding you or I.
Then I think we’re fairly aligned and I respect your honesty.
No dispute on whether I’ll be ferreting out biases for the rest of my life. I just consider it mental hygiene.
Yeah also I grew up in a world that was much more openly racist than the one of today so I’ll catch myself having stereotyping intrusive thoughts about dumb stuff people will do and I’ll be like, “no x type of person isn’t the only type that cuts you off in traffic, dumbass”. I don’t think that’s a belief though.
Just like I don’t think that having intrusive thoughts about jumping off a ledge means your suicidal.