I’m growing increasingly skeptical of “people are complicated” being anything more than a method of shaming people for discussing certain subjects.
We need to discuss groups of people and that inherently involves generalising their beliefs. Nobody is going to track down every single person in that photo and confirm the nuances of their racism just in case they thought it was the line for hot doughnuts, so the conversation people are having here becomes impossible.
Your mother’s specific views on black people don’t matter to any conversation people are having in academic or social media circles. We’re all perfectly aware that individuals have more complex opinions but we’re not talking about individuals.
But even more bizarrely, why do you think your mother’s views are some kind of “gotcha”? She was racist when it came to you dating a black person, which she inherently attempted to hand down to you. For the purposes of this conversation, we absolutely know what group she belongs to. She’s doesn’t get a free pass just because she didn’t have the whole set.
Pointing out the fallacy in a post that weaponizes shaming is not shaming. I have not shamed.
If you feel ashamed by my words, then my point is poorly made or this is another attempt to bring things away from understanding and dialogue and back to how to resume righteous feeling.
We need effective persuasion. We need facts. We need discourse to change things.
Saying 60ish years ago a person was on a side and ergo absolutely made only one line of thought their legacy is a false dichotomy. I was taught equality until, as an adult, my parents didn’t like interracial dating.
I used their holy book, reason, love. Not shame. Shame galvanizes and rarely leads its target to engage in open dialogue needed to move things.
Some people deserve shame. But we, the left, are galvanizing wide swatches of the population against the very points we say we want to engage and spread. That means conversations we need to have, like CRB are getting rejected without even being heard in any meaningful way.
Weaponized shame on a mass scale says more about feels than it does about maturity and getting our stated goals.
And I suspect well over half the people driving these galvanizing mechanics are not the people CRB would most benefit. If you’re a literal white crusader hell bent on dividing the world into the worthy and the enemy, I gotta wonder why.
I want a world where the realities of the past are discussed frankly. I want it decades or centuries ago. If I can’t have that, I want it now.
How are we to have the conversation when our “enemies” galvanize enough to throw out the modest things that at least allowed toe holds? Does shame build dialogue?
What is the goal of the original post really?
Where were my parents in that picture? Silent. Absent. But not approving of the bullies. Not all the way aware of the shadows of their thoughts, but definitely sympathetic to those being bullied.
Otherwise, let’s divide the world into the blameless and allies. I’m 50, I’m not blameless. But I’ve been an ally. I read, I engage, I vote my awareness of history and obvious enduring issues.
But I’m not blameless. Even the me that dated interracial, and married interracial had learning to do. Still do. Being righteous makes my own education less likely. How can I learn when I’m certain of my righteousness? I’m a fucking middle aged white dude. What do I know about living a black life? Even as a parent of biracial children I cannot attest to living a black life.
I have no holy hill to stand upon. I have no conviction so superior I can feel justified in placing my feels in they way of progress. And feeling righteous will only get in the way of hearing the voices of the actually oppressed.
I think that’s happened enough. Virtue signaling whit folk (like me?) need to book up, read, educated ourselves beyond the facts. And we need to realize as we rightly become angered by history that that history still isn’t about us - or if it is, it’s more about other populations. And we need to leave enough space and humility for those to be heard.
And to learn how to be effective allies.
I’m not arguing against urgency. I’m questioning the efficacy of lumping people into a vast bucket scorned sinners. OP wasn’t attempting to save or redeem those who were wrong.
It sought righteous feeling as an endpoint.
And fuck that noise. I want a more righteous reality. That’s my goal. And I’d like it with urgency. And I don’t care if I have to be humble and teachable along the way. Hell, that even sounds like a good idea.
There are ways to have the conversations I’m sure you want. But a Pic that says a person much choose ONE and does so with the kind of conviction I usually see from a virtuous white person… I’m not sure that’s how we do it.
Ya follow?
Race is nuanced. Why a variety of people in the black commimunity are uncomfortable with interracial dating… That’s also nuanced. It’s best not handled as a strict either/or because shit’s complicated.
And history matters. And the white disrespect of blacks throughout history may only run to the present in a new form. White folk aren’t the story. The impact of white folk in history… That is.
How we make inroads, that’s a conversation worth having too.
I think you’re misunderstanding the purpose of shame in society, and yes there is a purpose. The goal is to ensure anyone still forming their opinion that these certain opinions are unacceptable in our society. It isn’t to change people’s minds who already have them made up.
Shame is a useful tool, and saying it should never be employed is throwing away a tool that can shape the future to be better. Sure, we should also try to convince people to hold better opinions as well, but we aren’t really don’t that with this post, are we?
I specifically said some people deserve shame. It’s a lot of words and, tbf, if you didn’t read them all (not an aspersion), I really wouldn’t blame you (promise).
Shame is useful as a way to divide a group. Sometimes that’s justified. That doesn’t mean that it’s always done prudently.
Not arguing against it. Arguing against its ubiquity.
Overall, I’d prefer reasoned argument to innoculate against bad ideas but I dunno that’s always viable.
I think the white people in that image are not representatives of their race, they don’t represent all white people or white Americans. The person making the meme understands that, and many people who saw this image do so as well.
The disgust people feel at the action of those people is not extended to any random white person. The disgust I feel when I look at that picture is only reserved for anyone who wants to maintain or promote regressive policies or actions. Humanitarian ideals extend to everyone, regardless of race.
Edit: I think the “pick one” part of this meme you’re referring to is about picking humanity over tribalism, and not white vs black.
And yes, people should be allowed a chance to self-actualize without the baggage of their grandparents past. I think that’s only fair. The thing about self actualization is that you don’t have the right to self actualize into someone who stomps over the self actualization of others.
I’m growing increasingly skeptical of “people are complicated” being anything more than a method of shaming people for discussing certain subjects.
We need to discuss groups of people and that inherently involves generalising their beliefs. Nobody is going to track down every single person in that photo and confirm the nuances of their racism just in case they thought it was the line for hot doughnuts, so the conversation people are having here becomes impossible.
Your mother’s specific views on black people don’t matter to any conversation people are having in academic or social media circles. We’re all perfectly aware that individuals have more complex opinions but we’re not talking about individuals.
But even more bizarrely, why do you think your mother’s views are some kind of “gotcha”? She was racist when it came to you dating a black person, which she inherently attempted to hand down to you. For the purposes of this conversation, we absolutely know what group she belongs to. She’s doesn’t get a free pass just because she didn’t have the whole set.
Pointing out the fallacy in a post that weaponizes shaming is not shaming. I have not shamed.
If you feel ashamed by my words, then my point is poorly made or this is another attempt to bring things away from understanding and dialogue and back to how to resume righteous feeling.
We need effective persuasion. We need facts. We need discourse to change things.
Saying 60ish years ago a person was on a side and ergo absolutely made only one line of thought their legacy is a false dichotomy. I was taught equality until, as an adult, my parents didn’t like interracial dating.
I used their holy book, reason, love. Not shame. Shame galvanizes and rarely leads its target to engage in open dialogue needed to move things.
Some people deserve shame. But we, the left, are galvanizing wide swatches of the population against the very points we say we want to engage and spread. That means conversations we need to have, like CRB are getting rejected without even being heard in any meaningful way.
Weaponized shame on a mass scale says more about feels than it does about maturity and getting our stated goals.
And I suspect well over half the people driving these galvanizing mechanics are not the people CRB would most benefit. If you’re a literal white crusader hell bent on dividing the world into the worthy and the enemy, I gotta wonder why.
I want a world where the realities of the past are discussed frankly. I want it decades or centuries ago. If I can’t have that, I want it now.
How are we to have the conversation when our “enemies” galvanize enough to throw out the modest things that at least allowed toe holds? Does shame build dialogue?
What is the goal of the original post really?
Where were my parents in that picture? Silent. Absent. But not approving of the bullies. Not all the way aware of the shadows of their thoughts, but definitely sympathetic to those being bullied.
Otherwise, let’s divide the world into the blameless and allies. I’m 50, I’m not blameless. But I’ve been an ally. I read, I engage, I vote my awareness of history and obvious enduring issues.
But I’m not blameless. Even the me that dated interracial, and married interracial had learning to do. Still do. Being righteous makes my own education less likely. How can I learn when I’m certain of my righteousness? I’m a fucking middle aged white dude. What do I know about living a black life? Even as a parent of biracial children I cannot attest to living a black life.
I have no holy hill to stand upon. I have no conviction so superior I can feel justified in placing my feels in they way of progress. And feeling righteous will only get in the way of hearing the voices of the actually oppressed.
I think that’s happened enough. Virtue signaling whit folk (like me?) need to book up, read, educated ourselves beyond the facts. And we need to realize as we rightly become angered by history that that history still isn’t about us - or if it is, it’s more about other populations. And we need to leave enough space and humility for those to be heard.
And to learn how to be effective allies.
I’m not arguing against urgency. I’m questioning the efficacy of lumping people into a vast bucket scorned sinners. OP wasn’t attempting to save or redeem those who were wrong.
It sought righteous feeling as an endpoint.
And fuck that noise. I want a more righteous reality. That’s my goal. And I’d like it with urgency. And I don’t care if I have to be humble and teachable along the way. Hell, that even sounds like a good idea.
There are ways to have the conversations I’m sure you want. But a Pic that says a person much choose ONE and does so with the kind of conviction I usually see from a virtuous white person… I’m not sure that’s how we do it.
Ya follow?
Race is nuanced. Why a variety of people in the black commimunity are uncomfortable with interracial dating… That’s also nuanced. It’s best not handled as a strict either/or because shit’s complicated.
And history matters. And the white disrespect of blacks throughout history may only run to the present in a new form. White folk aren’t the story. The impact of white folk in history… That is.
How we make inroads, that’s a conversation worth having too.
Can you tell me how Ops post helps?
I think you’re misunderstanding the purpose of shame in society, and yes there is a purpose. The goal is to ensure anyone still forming their opinion that these certain opinions are unacceptable in our society. It isn’t to change people’s minds who already have them made up.
Shame is a useful tool, and saying it should never be employed is throwing away a tool that can shape the future to be better. Sure, we should also try to convince people to hold better opinions as well, but we aren’t really don’t that with this post, are we?
I specifically said some people deserve shame. It’s a lot of words and, tbf, if you didn’t read them all (not an aspersion), I really wouldn’t blame you (promise).
Shame is useful as a way to divide a group. Sometimes that’s justified. That doesn’t mean that it’s always done prudently.
Not arguing against it. Arguing against its ubiquity.
Overall, I’d prefer reasoned argument to innoculate against bad ideas but I dunno that’s always viable.
I think the white people in that image are not representatives of their race, they don’t represent all white people or white Americans. The person making the meme understands that, and many people who saw this image do so as well.
The disgust people feel at the action of those people is not extended to any random white person. The disgust I feel when I look at that picture is only reserved for anyone who wants to maintain or promote regressive policies or actions. Humanitarian ideals extend to everyone, regardless of race.
Edit: I think the “pick one” part of this meme you’re referring to is about picking humanity over tribalism, and not white vs black.
And yes, people should be allowed a chance to self-actualize without the baggage of their grandparents past. I think that’s only fair. The thing about self actualization is that you don’t have the right to self actualize into someone who stomps over the self actualization of others.