The Tesla and SpaceX tycoon has claimed that his daughter’s transition had driven him towards the political right. Now three trans people tell Io Dodds how their own loved ones went down the rabbit hole
I would argue it isn’t direct cause and effect as most likely that member has always harbored those feelings but being confronted with their beliefs is the catalyst that makes them veer into openly bigoted territory.
I think what OP is trying to say is that by claiming LGBTQ+ people coming out is the cause of people’s bigotry it will only make them less likely to come out but wouldn’t actually reduce the number of bigots in the world. (I know that’s probably not the argument you were trying to make, but it’s what it sounded like from the outside)
That’s entirely possible, but more than once I’ve seen genuinely great, kind-hearted people get sucked down toxic rabbit holes. Extremely liberal, open people getting slowly warped over time.
Hell, most of the time they don’t even realize it’s happening. I used the example in another comment, but it’s like someone indoctrinated into a cult. They didn’t exit the womb a cultist, this wasn’t always who they were. This happened to them at some point.
but then why blame the people that are saying “uhm you really shouldn’t be joining a cult (bigotry) that harms everyone” instead of the cult leaders (the bigoted mouthpieces pushing harmful rhetoric)?
it’s like saying that if your family never made claims the earth is round you would have never looked up anything related to it and wouldn’t have become a flat earther.
idk maybe it’s just that as LGBTQ+ i don’t like to think that if i were to come out it would cause my family to turn into bigots (which just makes me never want to bring it up 🤷)
Huh? Maybe I’m misunderstanding your comment, but I’m not blaming the people who criticize cults. Lol I’m one of those people, fuck cults. Maga in particular.
And as for your example, it’s hard to make a cause and effect argument when the cause is something that didn’t happen.
A better example would be if someone told someone else that the earth is round, so that second person decided to look into it. Through that, they stumbled upon the flat earth theory, and eventually got sucked into it.
In that example, the person only became a flat earther because the other person told them the world is round. Is that the second person’s fault? Are they to blame? Absolutely not, they were just stating a fact. But the reality is that that event led this other person into becoming a flat earther. That’s just what happened.
And genuinely I’m sorry, I hope your family, if you decide to come out, accepts and loves you for you. I’ve sadly known quite a few people who have had to deal with fallout from that, especially those living in more southern states. It’s heartbreaking. I’ve also known people whose family’s love them to death and barely bat an eye. So whatever you choose, choose what you need, what makes you happiest, whatever that may be.
And in case my point wasn’t clear, or it sounds like I’m saying something else, let me be clearer: It is absolutely not their fault. Not in the slightest. Their family’s toxic bs is their family’s alone, it’s not their burden to bare.
I think we’re both describing the same flat earth argument - still my point is that while there is a correlation between the coming out and the subsequent radicalization, it would be overly simplistic to claim direct causation. The coming out event acted as a catalyst that revealed and perhaps accelerated pre-existing tendencies in the family member who became radicalized, but it did not cause the bigotry itself.
it would be overly simplistic to claim direct causation
Considering one simply wouldn’t have happened without the other, I have to disagree. I agree that maybe these people may have a predisposition to radicalization, but the fact remains that said predisposition was only exploited because of the events prior.
Bigotry, in some ways sadly, isn’t something that one is born with. It’s something that people develop, whether it’s from their parents, environment, or they’re radicalized over time as they explore toxic rabbit holes online. Whatever the case, these people at one point were just like anyone else. I’ve seen it happen to genuine, loving, progressive people firsthand. It’s tragic.
So, at least the way I see it, a family member learning that someone close to them has come out, being ignorant of it and looking into it online, and then finding themselves in radical spaces, isn’t an outlandish idea. I’d wager that a lot of radicals probably began their descent from an innocent enough place, only to get deeper and deeper until it was far too late.
And of course! Regardless of any of this, I genuinely wish you all the best.
I would argue it isn’t direct cause and effect as most likely that member has always harbored those feelings but being confronted with their beliefs is the catalyst that makes them veer into openly bigoted territory.
I think what OP is trying to say is that by claiming LGBTQ+ people coming out is the cause of people’s bigotry it will only make them less likely to come out but wouldn’t actually reduce the number of bigots in the world. (I know that’s probably not the argument you were trying to make, but it’s what it sounded like from the outside)
That’s entirely possible, but more than once I’ve seen genuinely great, kind-hearted people get sucked down toxic rabbit holes. Extremely liberal, open people getting slowly warped over time.
Hell, most of the time they don’t even realize it’s happening. I used the example in another comment, but it’s like someone indoctrinated into a cult. They didn’t exit the womb a cultist, this wasn’t always who they were. This happened to them at some point.
but then why blame the people that are saying “uhm you really shouldn’t be joining a cult (bigotry) that harms everyone” instead of the cult leaders (the bigoted mouthpieces pushing harmful rhetoric)?
it’s like saying that if your family never made claims the earth is round you would have never looked up anything related to it and wouldn’t have become a flat earther.
idk maybe it’s just that as LGBTQ+ i don’t like to think that if i were to come out it would cause my family to turn into bigots (which just makes me never want to bring it up 🤷)
Huh? Maybe I’m misunderstanding your comment, but I’m not blaming the people who criticize cults. Lol I’m one of those people, fuck cults. Maga in particular.
And as for your example, it’s hard to make a cause and effect argument when the cause is something that didn’t happen.
A better example would be if someone told someone else that the earth is round, so that second person decided to look into it. Through that, they stumbled upon the flat earth theory, and eventually got sucked into it.
In that example, the person only became a flat earther because the other person told them the world is round. Is that the second person’s fault? Are they to blame? Absolutely not, they were just stating a fact. But the reality is that that event led this other person into becoming a flat earther. That’s just what happened.
And genuinely I’m sorry, I hope your family, if you decide to come out, accepts and loves you for you. I’ve sadly known quite a few people who have had to deal with fallout from that, especially those living in more southern states. It’s heartbreaking. I’ve also known people whose family’s love them to death and barely bat an eye. So whatever you choose, choose what you need, what makes you happiest, whatever that may be.
And in case my point wasn’t clear, or it sounds like I’m saying something else, let me be clearer: It is absolutely not their fault. Not in the slightest. Their family’s toxic bs is their family’s alone, it’s not their burden to bare.
I think we’re both describing the same flat earth argument - still my point is that while there is a correlation between the coming out and the subsequent radicalization, it would be overly simplistic to claim direct causation. The coming out event acted as a catalyst that revealed and perhaps accelerated pre-existing tendencies in the family member who became radicalized, but it did not cause the bigotry itself.
thank you for the kind words :)
Considering one simply wouldn’t have happened without the other, I have to disagree. I agree that maybe these people may have a predisposition to radicalization, but the fact remains that said predisposition was only exploited because of the events prior.
Bigotry, in some ways sadly, isn’t something that one is born with. It’s something that people develop, whether it’s from their parents, environment, or they’re radicalized over time as they explore toxic rabbit holes online. Whatever the case, these people at one point were just like anyone else. I’ve seen it happen to genuine, loving, progressive people firsthand. It’s tragic.
So, at least the way I see it, a family member learning that someone close to them has come out, being ignorant of it and looking into it online, and then finding themselves in radical spaces, isn’t an outlandish idea. I’d wager that a lot of radicals probably began their descent from an innocent enough place, only to get deeper and deeper until it was far too late.
And of course! Regardless of any of this, I genuinely wish you all the best.