Jesus Christ. That’s not what central planning means
You not being able to understand central planning beyond USSR technology, doesn’t mean it’s not what central planning means. That IS central planning, it’s just evil one, with the intent of maximizing profit and surplus value extraction, and in the most antidemocratic fashion possible. But the tools to modernize central planning of the economy, and to make it democratic and worker-based are pretty much already there for us to take. If you want to actually get educated in modern conceptions of socialist central planning, you could pick up a book like “People’s Republic of Walmart” or listen to experts talk about it (you can listen to a “deprogram podcast” about central planning they made a while ago), because, believe it or not, modern computing has solved the “economic calculation program”.
Holy shit. Thank you for demonstrating “hence why I believe you’ve read very little Marx.”
Uh… Where in the wall of text that you’ve sent me does Marx talk about the inefficiency of central planning? Because I’ve read through it twice just in case and it’s absolutely not talking about that. It’s a text about the evolution of feudalism into capitalism, about capitalism absorbing all other pre-capitalist systems, and eventually capitalism’s contradictions making it collapse. Please enlighten me as to where in this text you’ve copied and pasted Marx talks about central planning and what arguments he uses against it.
You not being able to understand central planning beyond USSR technology, doesn’t mean it’s not what central planning means.
“Central planning as an economic system is when a corporation vertically integrates, and the more it vertically integrates, the more centrally planned the economy is.”
Lord.
But the tools to modernize central planning of the economy, and to make it democratic and worker-based are pretty much already there for us to take. If you want to actually get educated in modern conceptions of socialist central planning, you could pick up a book like “People’s Republic of Walmart” or listen to experts talk about it (you can listen to a “deprogram podcast” about central planning they made a while ago), because, believe it or not, modern computing has solved the “economic calculation program”.
Cool, so we’re just ignoring where I said
However, we are at a point in human society where raw efficiency is no longer the bottleneck for our quality of life. Capitalism was an ugly solution to a real problem, but we can probably bid it farewell at this point, if only we can dislodge the elites who benefit from perpetuating it.
Uh… Where in the wall of text that you’ve sent me does Marx talk about the inefficiency of central planning? Because I’ve read through it twice just in case and it’s absolutely not talking about that. It’s a text about the evolution of feudalism into capitalism, about capitalism absorbing all other pre-capitalist systems, and eventually capitalism’s contradictions making it collapse. Please enlighten me as to where in this text you’ve copied and pasted Marx talks about central planning and what arguments he uses against it.
This you?
Also, where does Marx talk about the efficiency of markets and inefficiency of central planning???
Ask one of your more patient comrades to explain Marx to you, if they can; I don’t have the patience to hold your hand through an explanation. We’re done here.
Dude, I’m sorry but you’re being purposefully obtuse. Your initial comment was a simple and lazy “go read Marx” when I’m responding saying that central planning being better than market-based economy. I ask about where Marx talks about central-planning and market-based economies, and you answer with a tirade that has nothing to do with central planning whatsoever, as if I were defending that the Feudalist mode of production and distribution were more efficient than markets in capitalism. It’s just not the topic we were talking about, we were clearly engaged from the start on a conversation about central planning versus market economies, and you suddenly shift to “markets take over pre-capitalist societies”. Please just admit Marx never said that markets are better than central planning.
“Central planning as an economic system is when a corporation vertically integrates, and the more it vertically integrates, the more centrally planned the economy is.”
And again, purposefully reductionist and obtuse. I explicitly mentioned using the techniques for central planning devised by behemoths the size of countries like Amazon or Walmart, to make better central planning than your outdated 50-year-old USSR idea of it, as many socialists propose (again showing you haven’t read about ideas of central planning in socialism from the past 30 years), in a democratic fashion. I bet my ass again that you haven’t read a single modern text on possibilities of economic planning, which is cool, but don’t try to teach others how bad it is when you haven’t even done the most superficial research beyond “USSR bad”. The idea isn’t “let’s copy what Amazon does”, it’s “the historical critique against planned economies is based on the economic calculation problem (which you’re proving you’ve never even heard of before), and modern digital behemoths prove beyond refutal that the problem is already solved, so let’s use this knowledge and these tools to bring about a better, more efficient, more democratically organised economy for everyone”. Your reductionist point basically amounts to “companies are bad therefore we shouldn’t take their innovations”, as if capitalism hadn’t been the one to invent the industrial revolution. Big capitalist companies providing us with the tools of economic planning is exactly one of the contradictions of capitalism.
You not being able to understand central planning beyond USSR technology, doesn’t mean it’s not what central planning means. That IS central planning, it’s just evil one, with the intent of maximizing profit and surplus value extraction, and in the most antidemocratic fashion possible. But the tools to modernize central planning of the economy, and to make it democratic and worker-based are pretty much already there for us to take. If you want to actually get educated in modern conceptions of socialist central planning, you could pick up a book like “People’s Republic of Walmart” or listen to experts talk about it (you can listen to a “deprogram podcast” about central planning they made a while ago), because, believe it or not, modern computing has solved the “economic calculation program”.
Uh… Where in the wall of text that you’ve sent me does Marx talk about the inefficiency of central planning? Because I’ve read through it twice just in case and it’s absolutely not talking about that. It’s a text about the evolution of feudalism into capitalism, about capitalism absorbing all other pre-capitalist systems, and eventually capitalism’s contradictions making it collapse. Please enlighten me as to where in this text you’ve copied and pasted Marx talks about central planning and what arguments he uses against it.
“Central planning as an economic system is when a corporation vertically integrates, and the more it vertically integrates, the more centrally planned the economy is.”
Lord.
Cool, so we’re just ignoring where I said
This you?
Ask one of your more patient comrades to explain Marx to you, if they can; I don’t have the patience to hold your hand through an explanation. We’re done here.
Dude, I’m sorry but you’re being purposefully obtuse. Your initial comment was a simple and lazy “go read Marx” when I’m responding saying that central planning being better than market-based economy. I ask about where Marx talks about central-planning and market-based economies, and you answer with a tirade that has nothing to do with central planning whatsoever, as if I were defending that the Feudalist mode of production and distribution were more efficient than markets in capitalism. It’s just not the topic we were talking about, we were clearly engaged from the start on a conversation about central planning versus market economies, and you suddenly shift to “markets take over pre-capitalist societies”. Please just admit Marx never said that markets are better than central planning.
And again, purposefully reductionist and obtuse. I explicitly mentioned using the techniques for central planning devised by behemoths the size of countries like Amazon or Walmart, to make better central planning than your outdated 50-year-old USSR idea of it, as many socialists propose (again showing you haven’t read about ideas of central planning in socialism from the past 30 years), in a democratic fashion. I bet my ass again that you haven’t read a single modern text on possibilities of economic planning, which is cool, but don’t try to teach others how bad it is when you haven’t even done the most superficial research beyond “USSR bad”. The idea isn’t “let’s copy what Amazon does”, it’s “the historical critique against planned economies is based on the economic calculation problem (which you’re proving you’ve never even heard of before), and modern digital behemoths prove beyond refutal that the problem is already solved, so let’s use this knowledge and these tools to bring about a better, more efficient, more democratically organised economy for everyone”. Your reductionist point basically amounts to “companies are bad therefore we shouldn’t take their innovations”, as if capitalism hadn’t been the one to invent the industrial revolution. Big capitalist companies providing us with the tools of economic planning is exactly one of the contradictions of capitalism.