There’s is a popular school of thought that the diet‘s sole purpose to reduce suffering. If a living thing has no central nervous system (or brain), it has no thoughts and cannot experience pain or harm. It’s not much different than a fruit or vegetable. I know vegans that make exceptions for oysters - for example.
Others schools of thought are about avoiding animal products altogether, it doesn’t matter if it suffers or not - there’s no way to know. Therefore, it’s immoral to eat them if you can knowingly choose an alternative.
Others schools of thought are about avoiding animal products altogether, it doesn’t matter if it suffers or not - there’s no way to know. Therefore, it’s immoral to eat them if you can knowingly choose an alternative.
But why animals in particular? Is there any more reason to think a sea sponge would be sentient than a tree?
There’s is a popular school of thought that the diet‘s sole purpose to reduce suffering. If a living thing has no central nervous system (or brain), it has no thoughts and cannot experience pain or harm.
What about instant death? Like a farmer putting down a well-treated cow with a bullet to the head. In this scenario, the cow never suffered. In all likelihood it probably never even had much mental distress, let alone fear of death. Would that meat be ethical/vegan friendly?
Suffering is a broad definition. One would argue that prematurely ending sentient life without their consent would fit that definition.
Often, it’s not suffering on an individual level - but the suffering of a species. Cows live in bondage and we benefit from their labor and chose to end their lives for our benefit.
Sometimes Vegans extend this philosophy to pets and service animals - even if they’re treated exceptionally well.
The point is that Veganism is less monolithic than folks tend to believe. A person’s diet can be deeply personal and it’s up to them to draw lines.
I’m a meat eater. I don’t have an issue eating cows. I don’t have an issue eating rabbits, which I know people also keep as pets. I don’t have an issue eating lobster - whereas they’re boiled alive. But I know I couldn’t eat a cat or dog. Realistically, I have trouble with veal. So ya know, where I draw the line might not be the same for other people. My diet is informed by my culture, health, experiences and personal feelings - as is everyone’s.
Yeah, i completely agree that i am painting with broad strokes. I knew a guy that ate vegan because he believed it was healthier, not for any moral considerations at all.
I am mostly trying to strike up some conversation about the ethics of eating meat. I think your answer is as correct as any could be. It really is up to the individual to make their own determinations.
I used to go fishing with my dad when I was younger, but as an adult I don’t think I have the heart to do it.
I don’t want to be the one to chose who lives and who dies. Even bugs, I have a hard time swatting flies. I try to capture them and let them outside. But some of the time, I kill them - and end up feeling really guilty after - sometimes for days.
When it comes to eating meat, I’d rather live in a world where meat is grown in a lab, rather than raised. I think stuff like Impossible Burgers have gone a long way in terms of reproducing flavor and texture… but not there yet.
I guess I reconcile the fact that the animal is dead before it gets to my plate/kitchen. Someone’s going to eat it. Why not me? Or I make up some funny idea like, “well - if this cow was human, they’d probably be an Andrew Tate listener - so screw ‘em!”
More often, I just try not to think about it and just enjoy what I’m eating.
I don’t know. Maybe my ethics will change one day to a point where I actually change my diet drastically. But knowing myself, it could take a health scare before I do that.
I value every other species as worth less than a human and therefore they have different ethical considerations.
But, far down are you willing to go? How small? Rabbits? Rats, mice? Insects? Is squishing a spider ethically identical as murdering some one? I would say no, what would you say? There is a line, be it soft or hard, somewhere.
If the spider is in your home without consent I support trapping it and kicking it out.
If the spider or mosquito is trying to bite you, then I support your self defense actions much like if a human was trying to bite your arm you’d be in the right to use force.
Even in your examples you are treating animals as less than human. Why? Again, where is the line that involuntary trespassing is punishable by immediate death?
If a person bit you, yeah you could fight them off and use force. But, to be compare fairly, you would have to kill the person that bit you. Even then this is still an unfair argument because
That is not typical human behavior
A human bite can do substantially more damage than a mosquito bite.
So tell me where you can treat animals ethically identically as humans, and where you can’t. Where is the line?
Just because they are worth less than a human doesn’t mean you are free to inflict pain and suffering upon them. I’m vegan and i see animals as below me, i’d kill an animal if it means saving a human life.
However that alone doesn’t justify paying for them to be abused, raped, and have their throats slit for 15 minutes of taste pleasure when i can just eat something else instead.
The line is to not hurt animals unless you have a reason to.
At the end of the day, there’s probably nearly as many slightly different philosophies as there are individual vegans in the world.
I’ve definitely seen vegetarians/vegans who don’t really have an issue with ethically sourced meat if the animal was treated well and lived an otherwise good life, but actually ensuring that the animals receive that level of care is nearly impossible unless you raise them yourself and that’s an undertaking that many people are not up to for many different reasons. I’ve also met some who think that keeping an animal in captivity for any reason at all is unnecessary suffering, and to that end I’ve also seen some who don’t have an issue with hunting provided that it’s done in accordance with good conservation guidelines and the hunter makes a genuine effort to make sure they get a quick, clean kill because the animal was able to live a wild and free life up to the end.
I’m not saying those are at all mainstream vegan philosophies, they’re definitely in the minority, they’re just ideas that I’ve seen a small handful of people who identify themselves as vegans or vegetarians express at different times.
Basically every vegan has to draw the line somewhere, the modern world was built in party by using animals and short of wandering off to start a new life naked into the woods foraging for plants, it’s nearly impossible to totally decouple yourself from that, and where to draw that line can sometimes be a little murky.
It depends on the definition of Veganism.
There’s is a popular school of thought that the diet‘s sole purpose to reduce suffering. If a living thing has no central nervous system (or brain), it has no thoughts and cannot experience pain or harm. It’s not much different than a fruit or vegetable. I know vegans that make exceptions for oysters - for example.
Others schools of thought are about avoiding animal products altogether, it doesn’t matter if it suffers or not - there’s no way to know. Therefore, it’s immoral to eat them if you can knowingly choose an alternative.
Veganism is not only a diet. It’s an ethical stance and lifestyle.
Edit: clarifications
But why animals in particular? Is there any more reason to think a sea sponge would be sentient than a tree?
What about instant death? Like a farmer putting down a well-treated cow with a bullet to the head. In this scenario, the cow never suffered. In all likelihood it probably never even had much mental distress, let alone fear of death. Would that meat be ethical/vegan friendly?
Suffering is a broad definition. One would argue that prematurely ending sentient life without their consent would fit that definition.
Often, it’s not suffering on an individual level - but the suffering of a species. Cows live in bondage and we benefit from their labor and chose to end their lives for our benefit.
Sometimes Vegans extend this philosophy to pets and service animals - even if they’re treated exceptionally well.
The point is that Veganism is less monolithic than folks tend to believe. A person’s diet can be deeply personal and it’s up to them to draw lines.
I’m a meat eater. I don’t have an issue eating cows. I don’t have an issue eating rabbits, which I know people also keep as pets. I don’t have an issue eating lobster - whereas they’re boiled alive. But I know I couldn’t eat a cat or dog. Realistically, I have trouble with veal. So ya know, where I draw the line might not be the same for other people. My diet is informed by my culture, health, experiences and personal feelings - as is everyone’s.
Yeah, i completely agree that i am painting with broad strokes. I knew a guy that ate vegan because he believed it was healthier, not for any moral considerations at all.
I am mostly trying to strike up some conversation about the ethics of eating meat. I think your answer is as correct as any could be. It really is up to the individual to make their own determinations.
Ah.
Well in that case…
I used to go fishing with my dad when I was younger, but as an adult I don’t think I have the heart to do it.
I don’t want to be the one to chose who lives and who dies. Even bugs, I have a hard time swatting flies. I try to capture them and let them outside. But some of the time, I kill them - and end up feeling really guilty after - sometimes for days.
When it comes to eating meat, I’d rather live in a world where meat is grown in a lab, rather than raised. I think stuff like Impossible Burgers have gone a long way in terms of reproducing flavor and texture… but not there yet.
I guess I reconcile the fact that the animal is dead before it gets to my plate/kitchen. Someone’s going to eat it. Why not me? Or I make up some funny idea like, “well - if this cow was human, they’d probably be an Andrew Tate listener - so screw ‘em!”
More often, I just try not to think about it and just enjoy what I’m eating.
I don’t know. Maybe my ethics will change one day to a point where I actually change my diet drastically. But knowing myself, it could take a health scare before I do that.
Replace cow with human and see if it passes the test.
Is it ethical to give a human a scarf? Yes. Well it’s also ethical to give a cow a scarf.
Is it ethical to shoot a human in the head? No? Well it’s also unethical to shoot a cow in the head.
I value every other species as worth less than a human and therefore they have different ethical considerations.
But, far down are you willing to go? How small? Rabbits? Rats, mice? Insects? Is squishing a spider ethically identical as murdering some one? I would say no, what would you say? There is a line, be it soft or hard, somewhere.
If the spider is in your home without consent I support trapping it and kicking it out.
If the spider or mosquito is trying to bite you, then I support your self defense actions much like if a human was trying to bite your arm you’d be in the right to use force.
Even in your examples you are treating animals as less than human. Why? Again, where is the line that involuntary trespassing is punishable by immediate death? If a person bit you, yeah you could fight them off and use force. But, to be compare fairly, you would have to kill the person that bit you. Even then this is still an unfair argument because
So tell me where you can treat animals ethically identically as humans, and where you can’t. Where is the line?
Just because they are worth less than a human doesn’t mean you are free to inflict pain and suffering upon them. I’m vegan and i see animals as below me, i’d kill an animal if it means saving a human life. However that alone doesn’t justify paying for them to be abused, raped, and have their throats slit for 15 minutes of taste pleasure when i can just eat something else instead.
The line is to not hurt animals unless you have a reason to.
At the end of the day, there’s probably nearly as many slightly different philosophies as there are individual vegans in the world.
I’ve definitely seen vegetarians/vegans who don’t really have an issue with ethically sourced meat if the animal was treated well and lived an otherwise good life, but actually ensuring that the animals receive that level of care is nearly impossible unless you raise them yourself and that’s an undertaking that many people are not up to for many different reasons. I’ve also met some who think that keeping an animal in captivity for any reason at all is unnecessary suffering, and to that end I’ve also seen some who don’t have an issue with hunting provided that it’s done in accordance with good conservation guidelines and the hunter makes a genuine effort to make sure they get a quick, clean kill because the animal was able to live a wild and free life up to the end.
I’m not saying those are at all mainstream vegan philosophies, they’re definitely in the minority, they’re just ideas that I’ve seen a small handful of people who identify themselves as vegans or vegetarians express at different times.
Basically every vegan has to draw the line somewhere, the modern world was built in party by using animals and short of wandering off to start a new life naked into the woods foraging for plants, it’s nearly impossible to totally decouple yourself from that, and where to draw that line can sometimes be a little murky.