Actually, you seem to have a problem pivoting from calling people classist to, when called out for being wrong about that fact, complaining about people being on a “soap box” defending animal exploitation.
Akchually, i didn’t call anyone classist, nor did i defend “animal exploitation”. if you have to lie outright in order to make your point, it can’t be much of a point.
The underlying problem here is exploitation.
as i said from the start, i oppose child labor (in fact, any forced labor)-- and i find it pretty disgusting that some here are so blinded by their hatred of meat that they would overlook it in order to push their own agenda. and since you, too, would conflate the two - as if veganism would somehow magically eliminate child labor/exploitation - and are attacking me for pointing that out is preposterous.
this isn’t cognitive dissonance-- it’s me calling out your straw man argument for the fallacious and specious argument that it is.
so, you’re assuming that because of their race and economic status (which you are also assuming, btw), that makes them forced labor. how is that not classist?
You must have very short-term memory. Sorry if that’s the case. I’m sure it was a totally genuine, good-faith question.
as i said from the start, i oppose child labor (in fact, any forced labor)-- and i find it pretty disgusting that some here are so blinded by their hatred of meat that they would overlook it in order to push their own agenda. and since you, too, would conflate the two - as if veganism would somehow magically eliminate child labor/exploitation - and are attacking me for pointing that out is preposterous.
If you opposed child labor, you should want the animal ag industry abolished. Veganism has not once been brought up by me. However, since you invoked it: yeah, actually, taking a holistic approach to addressing exploitation, including animal exploitation, would, in fact, lead to a reduction in child exploitation. The underlying thinking that enables one to think of other sentient beings as resources to be exploited, for their labor, for their bodies, their lactations, etc., is all the same. The fact is that if you banned animal ag, you would significantly reduce total child labor violations.
Any yeah, whinging about people correctly pointing out the reality that animal exploitation begets more child exploitation is an implicit defense of animal exploitation. Sorry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But seeing your other comments about how people in lower socio-economic strata choose some of the most grueling and exploitative labor conditions because they can just quit lul makes it pretty apparent that you aren’t really equipped to have any discussion about addressing exploitation in any form.
Maybe shouldn’t, but I’m replying in a separate comment because I want to make something clear: we agree on most things discussed here. From the start, I made clear that my ”problem” was that the issue of child labor/exploitation was being co-opted by those who wanted to make veganism the issue. You seem well-intentioned and your arguments well-articulated enough that I believe what you and were trying to say got caught in the fray, so I’d like to clarify my positions, even though, under normal circumstances, I don’t feel they would need to be defended or even explained.
as I’ve already explained, but I’d like to make clear: I find the concept of any form of human exploitation unacceptable. More than that: revolting and worthy of revolt. I don’t need to see some migrant child enslaved to revolt over it, but I will revolt over it all the same. I recognize and have long known that the industrial farming industry has long been one of the worst offenders in exploiting workers, especially workers of disadvantaged groups and classes, but that industry is hardly alone— yet in any discussion on lemmy about disadvantaged, exploited workers, vegans descent, en masse, to shift any discussion of exploited workers - even children - immediately to “boo hoo, what about the chickens? The cows? THE GOATS?!”
All care of the exploited humans, the children is always drowned out by the militant and irrational, religious belief that “Meat Is Murder” crowd with nary a thought for the vast exploited masses who slaughter and process that meat.
Look: you and I may disagree on the ethics of slaughter (I assure you, we do), but I’m trying to focus on the objectionable nature of exploitation of human labor under such horrific conditions, and I believe both you and I can have constructive, productive conversations about that.
Now, YES, a said some dumb-shit things when trying to one-up someone while parsing the meaning of the word “force”. I was WRONG AND DUMB, Forced labor or exploitative labor— whatever… the point is that it’s wrong and terrible, and nobody, anywhere, regardless of race, class, nationality, location, or whatever should ever have to endure it. However, I’m not convinced that meat has a causal link to that, as it exists in many other industries. Also, the slaughter and harvesting of meat exists in humane ways without exploiting either animals or humans.
And while we may disagree on some of the finer points, we can certainly proceed discussing the matter now that we understand each other on the broader points.
I hope the time I spent typing this wasn’t wasted.
Edit: I see now that you downvoted even this attempt at reasoning, that you care only to further the agenda of “meat is murder” and any reproach of human exploitation is merely a means to an end to further the dietary zealotry of veganism. no person can reason with another that places a well-being of farm animals over those of suffering humans. How disgusting.
So much for my attempt to reach out with a reason. I won’t make that mistake again.
How precisely can the slaughter and harvest of meat exist in humane ways?
When and where do vegans place the well being of farm animals above people?
How can you find it reasonable to assert that an industry that famously relied on coerced/forced labor over a century ago and has preyed upon the workers most in need of dangerous, traumatizing work ever since has no causal link to its inputs and outputs which are the bodies of living creatures?
I replied to your courteous response with courtesy in kind, asking genuine questions to understand your ideas and hopefully eventually understand your position.
You’re not under attack or being trolled. I hope you have a great day!
You must have very short-term memory. Sorry if that’s the case.
apparently you have reading comprehension issues-- you read me asking a question and interpreted that as a statement. or… you’re so bold as to lie while providing evidence that it’s a lie…
If you opposed child labor, you should want the animal ag industry abolished.
oh, so, you’re a psychic now? fascinating! what color shirt am i wearing?
Veganism has not once been brought up by me. However, since you invoked it: yeah, actually, taking a holistic approach to addressing exploitation, including animal exploitation, would, in fact, lead to a reduction in child exploitation.
see, this is what i meant by disingenuous. the mental gymnastics, the twisting of words and intentions… you’ve outdone yourself. well done. you’ve straw manned your straw man. you’ve assumed i agree with your position that eating meat = animal exploitation, that it’s an established fact, which it isn’t and i don’t. that’s just your opinion, and a far more complex issue than you present it as. then you make a massive association fallacy with your straw man by trying to equate it to the actual, very complex issue under discussion: child labor/exploitation.
and, again, for calling you out on this, you attack, lie, and mischaracterize everything i’ve said.
Akchually, i didn’t call anyone classist, nor did i defend “animal exploitation”. if you have to lie outright in order to make your point, it can’t be much of a point.
as i said from the start, i oppose child labor (in fact, any forced labor)-- and i find it pretty disgusting that some here are so blinded by their hatred of meat that they would overlook it in order to push their own agenda. and since you, too, would conflate the two - as if veganism would somehow magically eliminate child labor/exploitation - and are attacking me for pointing that out is preposterous.
this isn’t cognitive dissonance-- it’s me calling out your straw man argument for the fallacious and specious argument that it is.
This you?
You must have very short-term memory. Sorry if that’s the case. I’m sure it was a totally genuine, good-faith question.
If you opposed child labor, you should want the animal ag industry abolished. Veganism has not once been brought up by me. However, since you invoked it: yeah, actually, taking a holistic approach to addressing exploitation, including animal exploitation, would, in fact, lead to a reduction in child exploitation. The underlying thinking that enables one to think of other sentient beings as resources to be exploited, for their labor, for their bodies, their lactations, etc., is all the same. The fact is that if you banned animal ag, you would significantly reduce total child labor violations.
Any yeah, whinging about people correctly pointing out the reality that animal exploitation begets more child exploitation is an implicit defense of animal exploitation. Sorry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
But seeing your other comments about how people in lower socio-economic strata choose some of the most grueling and exploitative labor conditions because they can just quit lul makes it pretty apparent that you aren’t really equipped to have any discussion about addressing exploitation in any form.
how can you prove this?
Maybe shouldn’t, but I’m replying in a separate comment because I want to make something clear: we agree on most things discussed here. From the start, I made clear that my ”problem” was that the issue of child labor/exploitation was being co-opted by those who wanted to make veganism the issue. You seem well-intentioned and your arguments well-articulated enough that I believe what you and were trying to say got caught in the fray, so I’d like to clarify my positions, even though, under normal circumstances, I don’t feel they would need to be defended or even explained.
as I’ve already explained, but I’d like to make clear: I find the concept of any form of human exploitation unacceptable. More than that: revolting and worthy of revolt. I don’t need to see some migrant child enslaved to revolt over it, but I will revolt over it all the same. I recognize and have long known that the industrial farming industry has long been one of the worst offenders in exploiting workers, especially workers of disadvantaged groups and classes, but that industry is hardly alone— yet in any discussion on lemmy about disadvantaged, exploited workers, vegans descent, en masse, to shift any discussion of exploited workers - even children - immediately to “boo hoo, what about the chickens? The cows? THE GOATS?!”
All care of the exploited humans, the children is always drowned out by the militant and irrational, religious belief that “Meat Is Murder” crowd with nary a thought for the vast exploited masses who slaughter and process that meat.
Look: you and I may disagree on the ethics of slaughter (I assure you, we do), but I’m trying to focus on the objectionable nature of exploitation of human labor under such horrific conditions, and I believe both you and I can have constructive, productive conversations about that.
Now, YES, a said some dumb-shit things when trying to one-up someone while parsing the meaning of the word “force”. I was WRONG AND DUMB, Forced labor or exploitative labor— whatever… the point is that it’s wrong and terrible, and nobody, anywhere, regardless of race, class, nationality, location, or whatever should ever have to endure it. However, I’m not convinced that meat has a causal link to that, as it exists in many other industries. Also, the slaughter and harvesting of meat exists in humane ways without exploiting either animals or humans.
And while we may disagree on some of the finer points, we can certainly proceed discussing the matter now that we understand each other on the broader points.
I hope the time I spent typing this wasn’t wasted.
Edit: I see now that you downvoted even this attempt at reasoning, that you care only to further the agenda of “meat is murder” and any reproach of human exploitation is merely a means to an end to further the dietary zealotry of veganism. no person can reason with another that places a well-being of farm animals over those of suffering humans. How disgusting.
So much for my attempt to reach out with a reason. I won’t make that mistake again.
How precisely can the slaughter and harvest of meat exist in humane ways?
When and where do vegans place the well being of farm animals above people?
How can you find it reasonable to assert that an industry that famously relied on coerced/forced labor over a century ago and has preyed upon the workers most in need of dangerous, traumatizing work ever since has no causal link to its inputs and outputs which are the bodies of living creatures?
I’m not gonna waste time trying to convince someone who is trolling a two day old argument just to make themselves feel better.
Blocked
I replied to your courteous response with courtesy in kind, asking genuine questions to understand your ideas and hopefully eventually understand your position.
You’re not under attack or being trolled. I hope you have a great day!
apparently you have reading comprehension issues-- you read me asking a question and interpreted that as a statement. or… you’re so bold as to lie while providing evidence that it’s a lie…
oh, so, you’re a psychic now? fascinating! what color shirt am i wearing?
see, this is what i meant by disingenuous. the mental gymnastics, the twisting of words and intentions… you’ve outdone yourself. well done. you’ve straw manned your straw man. you’ve assumed i agree with your position that eating meat = animal exploitation, that it’s an established fact, which it isn’t and i don’t. that’s just your opinion, and a far more complex issue than you present it as. then you make a massive association fallacy with your straw man by trying to equate it to the actual, very complex issue under discussion: child labor/exploitation.
and, again, for calling you out on this, you attack, lie, and mischaracterize everything i’ve said.
this is a bare fact. like drinking water is often exploited from a well. exploitation is not bad in itself.
How narcissistic to assume your opinion must be a fact and anyone who disagrees must be attacked. This is exactly what makes vegans so insufferable.
Get over yourself.
you should check a dictionary. farmers exploit their fields, oil companies exploit wells. don’t take my word for it
and the other people in my inbox certainly don’t think I’m vegan. why do you?