Israeli air strikes on a so-called “humanitarian zone” in southern Gaza’s al-Mawasi killed at least 40 people on Tuesday, according to health authorities in the enclave.
The strikes targeted at least 20 tents sheltering displaced Palestinians in the coastal area near the city of Khan Younis.
Eyewitnesses told AFP that at least five rockets fell in the area, with emergency services saying the strikes created craters up to nine metres deep.
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
Edit: FTA, since people think this is whataboutism :)
Edit 2: ITT Hamas? You mean Israel? If not obvious by this point, the effort is to discredit/downplay anything critical of Hamas, turn discussion about Hamas activities into whataboutisms towards Israel, and reframe arguments against Hamas activities as a defense of genocide. Rinse, repeat in every thread about this conflict. Kinda boring after a while.
Fukhueson when they find out you’re not actually supposed to kill human shields:
Wait until you find out that no one should be using human shields to begin with :) either side.
But they are, that is the situation we are in. At every point we can say Hamas is a piece of shit group for using human shields, but that’s not gonna change the situation. You keep saying that Hamas isn’t getting enough criticism, but I think bombardment by the IDF is criticism enough. The whole ask is, stop shooting through the human shields to kill the bad guys. Even here there is doubt that there even was Hamas hiding with civilians to begin with. We are just giving Israel loads and loads of money, but we can’t even get a more definitive answer than “we said so”? At this point I can only think that, even if by some chance Israel really isn’t commiting a genocide, the end result will be indistinguishable from it. Palestine and it’s people will be erased physically or culturally and we are allowing it to happen, and any pointing that out is met with “Hamas is the one using them as shields” or “Hamas started it”. Hamas is unconscionable. Israel isn’t, or atleast they say they aren’t.
We also have tons of evidence of the IDF using civilians as human shields, including children.
I actually haven’t even heard about this tbh, usually I just see another massacre of civilians in the news and go about my day feeling like shit
Yeah. There’s a reason you haven’t heard about it.
You can search for it yourself. Or look at another comment I made either in this thread or another where I linked to several sources about it.
This is a religious ethnostate with compulsory military service where they indoctrinate every single one of their citizens to believe that Palestinians are subhuman. And I mean this quite literally, they have completely dehumanized the Palestinian people in ever sense of the word.
And when you don’t see them as people, they can become useful meat shields.
Ignoring your comment since you’re misrepresenting my argument. No need to address anything you said, this is simply an attempt to reframe my concern that criticism of Hamas is met with whataboutism.
Just look at the soap box this user takes advantage of when I say no one should use human shields. “Yea Hamas does it, but Israel???”
Tell me what criticism of Hamas accomplishes then. They went and killed a thousand innocent Israelis, they hide among civilians, resulting in said civilians deaths. What now? Do I get a gold star for pointing out the terrorists? Do the dead get to cheer that their death meant another Hamas militant died (or didn’t in the case of this article)?Are the living supposed to feel grateful to Israel that their family and friends are dead, needless to say hateful towards Hamas for hiding amongst them? What is the goal here? What are me, and the dozens of other people here, missing that only you seem to see?
Tell me what criticism of Hamas accomplishes then. They went and killed a thousand innocent Israelis, they hide among civilians, resulting in said civilians deaths. What now? Do I get a gold star for pointing out the terrorists? Do the dead get to cheer that their death meant another Hamas militant died (or didn’t in the case of this article)?Are the living supposed to feel grateful to Israel that their family and friends are dead, needless to say hateful towards Hamas for hiding amongst them? What is the goal here? What are me, and the dozens of other people here, missing that only you seem to see? And again I will point it out, this entire thread started when you saw an article takling about Israel’s recent mistake, and said “But why isn’t anyome criticising Hamas?”
There’s proof it’s a mistake? Also, misrepresenting my argument. It’s getting more and more clear what’s going on here…
Also, I think you meant to reply to me, not yourself?
Again, what is your argument?
An argument expressing the futility of criticizing Hamas while attempting to redirect criticism towards Israel… Now that’s funny.
Edit: lol like I need to entertain these whataboutisms… Demanding answers…
Where is your answer?
Lol, it’s funny how clearly you can see patterns as soon as you tag a commentor.
Your entire argument here has been whatsboutism.
Wow, now that’s a stupid hypothetical.
I don’t think you understand what a hypothetical is.
I won’t respond to anything else you posted.
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Uh huh. Yet all of your comments are clearly supportive of the IDF’s actions, and we know for a fact that the IDF uses civilians (often children) as human shields:
https://www.commondreams.org/news/israel-human-shields
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-13/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-uses-gazan-civilians-as-human-shields-to-inspect-potentially-booby-trapped-tunnels/00000191-4c84-d7fd-a7f5-7db6b99e0000
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/14/israeli-forces-in-gaza-use-civilians-as-human-shields-against-possible-booby-traps
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-armys-use-palestinian-civilians-human-shields-has-been-documented-large-scale
This is turning into harassment.
Edit: I think not engaging is the winning move with this one :)
Huh?
At this point I’ve just kind of realized that there is no argument to be had with them. Not that their stubborn, but genuinely. It’s not that they can’t be critical of Hamas that they’re arguing, but that their criticism is responded to by “whataboutism” (so says them). Which isn’t even an argument so much as a statement? Like I guess yea, if you say so? But the original article is talking about a bombing in a civilian safe-zone that may not even have killed Hamas militants, so criticism of Israel is expected, even in replies of criticism if Hamas. If anything they are just complaining about the way they were responded to, which I don’t even know what the response they want is? I’ve concurred with said criticism, but that doesn’t seem to be it either? I genuinely don’t know what there is to say, or what they want if it’s not agreement with their criticism. Maybe that the criticism should be unchallenged? But again this is a thread about IDF bombs killing civilians in a “safe zone”. Either way I don’t think it’s worth your time, as they can’t even commit to ending conversations that aren’t “worth their time.”
How would Israel operate differently if Hamas was hiding in Tel Aviv and using those citizens as their human shields?
That’s a hostage situation, or breaking and entering (and maybe blackmail), depending on if the citizens in question are different ones from Tel Aviv or the original ones from The Gaza strip. It’s an entirely different situation.
But I thought they all had the same rights?
It depends if they’re willfully hiding the terrorists or are forced to do so.
The cheat code here is indoctrinating your soldiers (serving compulsorily) to the point that they equate “Palestinian” with “terrorist.”
A religious ethnostate where every single citizen is required to serve in the military. A military that brainwashes them into believing that Palestinians are literally subhuman. And I mean literally in the classic sense. These are not humans in their eyes.
Which means that every school and hospital in the area is “harboring terrorists” because there are Palestinians there. How convenient for them.
I’m Israeli and have served in the IDF. This is simply not true.
LOL.
Many of them are also taught a whole lot about disseminating propaganda.
I’m glad you find it funny. Have a nice life.
Ah yes, hypotheticals we’d never have to consider. What if Hamas actually cared about Palestinians?
Am I doing it right? :)
You’ve clearly gotten the point from my hypothetical and don’t like the conclusion you yourself have reached ;)
Enjoy speedrunning post-9/11 US neoconservatism
Weird conclusion, speaking for yourself?
In my opinion way more productive than silly hypotheticals (and how poor arguments should be responded to, in kind)
Man it would be great if someone (anyone) could disprove what I’m posting, instead of throwing accusations of genocide or… Memeing…
Edit: lol at the insistence of hypotheticals being some “gotcha.”
“poor argument”, i.e., a point you didn’t like and didn’t have the courage to respond to.
Sure, if you’d like to actually engage I’d be happy to walk you through what everyone’s problem with how the IDF is operating.
We expect Israel to treat the life of every Palestinian civilian the same way they would treat an Israeli civilian.
It’s that simple.
Hamas is the bad guy, they’re bad because they kill innocent people to achieve their objectives.
For Israel to be the good guy, they need to not kill innocent people to achieve their objectives. They can’t say ‘we had no choice, Hamas forced us to kill those civilians or we wouldn’t be able to achieve our objectives’.
And you disproved what I posted… Where? Because I’m trusting this wasn’t just a springboard to talk about the IDF when I’m discussing what Hamas is doing right?
Because that’d be whataboutism…
Maybe try addressing what I wrote, not what you want to engage in, which for you is discussing the IDF and not Hamas.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147976
Rights expert finds ‘reasonable grounds’ genocide is being committed in Gaza
Blatant whataboutism :)
Edit: How easy would it be for them to say that both might be true? Very. But if they said that Hamas would lose credibility, and bring into question the whole “freedom fighter” schtick. Can’t address it, must focus on allegations of genocide and accusing others of defending genocide if anyone brings up something critical of Hamas (please peruse their comment history), thereby derailing any discussion on the matter.
See? It’s that easy.
Show the evidence then for those tents being Hamas
In fitting behavior, I could ask for evidence those Hamas military figures were elsewhere. However, I’m confident subsequent reviews of this event and others like it will uncover the truth, and perhaps we’ll get another extensive report on the matter (did you read my link?).
I think we both know that lies travel faster than evidence, don’t we?
Don’t really care about the reply, I got what I wanted.
What figures
Sorry I thought you read your article:
Won’t be continuing this conversation, especially if this is the level of discussion I should expect.
What discussion I thought we were posting random stuff that came to mind
Weird
Edit: appreciating the admission they weren’t even trying to have a discussion.
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Nice I got the CIA Award for Journalism
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-cia-award-for-excellence-in-journalism
I think this is an unjust indictment of the mods, and unproductive.
Yea I was addressing content directly discussed in the article. I was replied to with things unrelated to Hamas’ military use of civilian infrastructure, in an effort to derail conversation on the matter.
Also you don’t know what whataboutism is, clearly.
You wouldn’t mind explaining what it is then? I’m all ears.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
I bring up information relevant to the article. I’m responded to with a counter accusation instead of a rebuttal of the provided evidence. I won’t be replying to you anymore, this is a waste of my time.
Nice propaganda to justify Israel’s ethnic cleansing and targeting of civilians. That article is full of misinformation and not backed up by independent investigations.
Security
Israel does justify the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice. See: The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948, the Transfer Committee, and the JNF which led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate, before the mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948: Plan Dalet, Declassified Massacres of 1948, and Details of Plan C (May 1946) and Plan D (March 1948) . Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967: Haaretz, Forward; while the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements (Oslo Accord Sources: MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ). The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
Civilian Deaths and Human Shields:
Israel does deliberately targets civilian areas. From in general with the Dahiya Doctrine to multiple systems deployed in Gaza to do so: ‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza, Lavender, and Where’s Daddy. When it comes to Israeli Soldiers and Civilians, there is also the use of the Hannibal Directive, which was also used on Oct 7th.
Hundreds of Genocide Scholars have described this ethnic cleansing campaign as genocide because of the deliberate targeting of children/civilians and expressed intent by Israeli officials: “A Textbook Case of Genocide”: Israeli Holocaust Scholar Raz Segal Decries Israel’s Assault on Gaza, 800+ Legal Scholars Say Israel May Be Perpetrating ‘Crime of Genocide’ in Gaza , Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide – Continuously Updated.
On the subject of Human Shields, there are some independent reports for past conflicts of Hamas jeopardizing the safety of civilians via Rocket fire in dense urban areas, two instances during Oct 7th, but no independent verification since then so far. None of which absolve Israel of the crime of targeting civilians under international law:
HRW on Laws-of-War Violations 2009
Agency Demands Full Respect for the Sanctity of Its Premises in Gaza - July 2014
HRW - Palestinian Armed Groups’ October 7 Assault on Israel
Israel/OPT: Israeli attacks targeting Hamas and other armed group fighters that killed scores of displaced civilians in Rafah should be investigated as war crimes
HRW - Gaza: Unlawful Israeli Hospital Strikes Worsen Health Crisis
Additionally, there is extensive independent verification of Israel using Palestinians as Human Shields: IDF uses Human Shields, including Children (2013 Report), and in the latest war Israel “Systematically” Uses Gaza Children as Human Shields, Rights Group Finds
My properly sourced information is not invalidated by anything you said. It actually cited multiple highly reliable sources.
Also it’s whataboutism :) anyone noticing a pattern here? Blindly discredit anything critical of Hamas?
Goodbye!
Edit: there’s nothing “propaganda” about NATO. This ought to be a red flag… And yes, this report confirms more than your sources do, posting incomplete assessments of Hamas’ use of human shields does not discredit NATO, sorry.
Edit 2: how hilarious is it that NATO stratcom is accused of being a propaganda outlet when the original post is from MEE?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Eye
Is this comment also accusing me of justifying genocide? Like the others that were removed?
You can’t be serious. Everyone does propaganda, propaganda is everywhere. Just because you happen to agree with NATO propaganda doesn’t mean it isn’t propaganda. Your original comment is propaganda, the responses to it are propaganda, this entire comment section is full of propaganda. Anyone disseminating information reflecting the views or interests of any doctrine or cause is engaging in propaganda.
Edit:
No, not everything is propaganda… I think I’ll trust NATO, thank you for your personal opinions though.
Unless you disagree with the meaning of the word propaganda then everything I said is a statement of fact, not a personal opinion. What do you mean when you say propaganda (and don’t just give examples, actually define it).
I’m supposed to defend my position after you baselessly call NATO stratcom propaganda (by whatever definition)? Lol no no, let’s review “burden of proof”:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
So, let’s discuss your evidence that NATO stratcom is propaganda. I’d love to see these “facts.”
For example: I can point to evidence that Tasnim News is propaganda.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/tasnim-news-agency/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AReliable_sources%2FPerennial_sources
Statements of fact indeed :)
Alright, I’ll play along.
Claim:
The document titled hamas human shields released by NATO Strategic Communications is propaganda.
Argument:
Merriam-Webster defines propaganda as-
Let’s break that down. To determine whether the NATO StratCom document hamas human shields meets the criteria for propaganda we need to answer the following:
Q: Does the item in question contain ideas, information, or rumor?
A: Without having to verify any claims you can still confidently state that the document contains at least one if not all of these. Statements of opinion can be classified as ideas, and statement of fact can be considered either information or rumor depending upon the amount and veracity of supporting evidence.
Q: Was the item in question spread for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person?
A: By posting the document on a public forum for the purpose of defending NATO’s actions, you yourself fulfilled this criteria. Prior to that, NATO StratCom also fulfilled it, as they have an implicit interest in defending the actions of NATO (which this document serves to do)
I don’t dispute this.
Nice breakdown. I’ve spent some time here and there watching this clown throw themselves bodily side to side to avoid getting the point. Any time someone corners them, they reply with some variation of “I’m bored now, not responding anymore”.
I think they’re just a pretty proficient troll. For their sake, I hope I’m right as one depressing alternative is this is actually who they are.
The well sourced information presented in the report has not been disputed. You’re audaciously prescribing intent onto me (?), accusing me of presenting this to defend NATO. I’m presenting corroborating well sourced information relevant to the article posted. Nothing you claim is substantiated, other than our shared agreement on Tasnim News.
This is unfounded opinion, and a means to discredit information critical of Hamas. Going by your chosen definition, AP news presents information and ideas meant to help inform people on a multitude of issues and is thus propaganda. Did you read the next definition Merriam Webster lists? A bit more critical and harder to apply to NATO huh?
Your answers contain a lot of “can be” and vague allegations. Nothing definite, no evidence. Playing along would be doing what I did, not finding an obtuse definition and applying your personal opinion to it. Like, here’s another one:
Can’t really apply that because the information in the report isn’t misleading right? And it’s not promoting a cause, it’s providing strategies to countries in how to deal with human shield situations. Information, that’s it.
I’m tired of this game. Gonna focus on Harris ripping Trump a new one.
Person provides an incredibly detailed, well sourced comment and you don’t even address a single point from it. Huh.
I understand I never said what you’re claiming, thanks.
We can tell your level of understanding
I did debunk your quoted paragraphs about human shields and provided sources. Here is a video that details the situation if you prefer
They are not debunked by your sources, nothing you provide proves the NATO article wrong. YouTube is not a source.
Bored, leaving.
Lol got it, you didn’t read a single source. If you did you’d recognize which sources the video was referencing
Yes I did, NATO is not debunked, your sources do not dispute the reports contents. Sorry.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/14/israeli-forces-in-gaza-use-civilians-as-human-shields-against-possible-booby-traps
Israel routinely uses children as human shields.
But hey let’s write huge paragraphs about why Hamas are so horrible for doing it, and than complain about whataboutism when it’s shown that the people actively engaged in a genocide are doing the thing they accuse the victims of as justification for slaughtering them.
My comment is relevant to the article. Your comment in reply to me is whataboutism by definition.
Yes, no doubt left as far as how criticism of Hamas gets received.
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Thank you for confirming what I edited into my original comment.
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Posting something critical of Hamas is not justification for anything, it’s just critical of Hamas. Baselessly accusing me of anything more is unfounded, telling, and confirms my previous concern.
Goodbye.
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I directly quoted the article indicating relevance.
Yes, goodbye :)
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I mean it’s not like one is the most moral army in the world and the othet is a terrorist organization fighting their oppressors. Wonder which people expect to not shoot or use human shields
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Moral_equivalence
…
Not responding further.I’m in no way accusing anyone of justifying anything, I’m quoting the appropriate section of the article relevant to the fallacy.It’s how they describe themselves. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_of_arms
No shit, all you’ve done is say hamas bad so idf okay then get upset when everyone points out that’s not an argument.
Even here you’ve done nothing but try to take the moral high ground in an area you clearly need to educate yourself more on.
I said nothing of the sort. Please cite where I said IDF ok :) yet another attempt to lie about my position.
It’s still a fallacy, no matter how you want to slice it.
Go away.
So still no position argument for only focusing on hamas?
In a thread about idf doing more war crimes?
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Cool doing an edit not answering the question. Again…
Which part?
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I can cross out things too, but that doesn’t make them true. You could cite where I said those exact things, which would make a much stronger case… Wait, could you?
Cite where you said what things? I literally copy/pasted part of your comment and swapped the nouns around. I never claimed you said the modified quote, my point was that what you said is literally the exact opposite of reality.
Don’t waste your time, bud. I know you’ve probably got a quota to hit, but you’ll just be wasting it on me.
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Why would you take offense if you didn’t understand the implication?
Go whine to a mod that you’re being “harassed” because I sent sources you didn’t like.
I wonder how many they’ve gotten banned from this thread, while somehow still not getting banned themselves
I don’t understand why the mods are removing responses to that guy either. It would be helpful to still have the removed comment visible, like under a spoiler or something and an explanation why by the mod
Ones I saw were civility. Because they were calling out the person being a genocide apologist/denial.