on the contrary, communism is the final form of democracy.
capitalism != democracy because capital owners have a disproportionate amount of social, economic and political power, if not all. in a capitalist society the laws and police are there largely to protect and preserve capital and not you.
I didn’t say anything about capitalism being natural. I said the final stage, anarcho-syndicalism, is probably unachievable. And no, human nature is not whatever we do with it. You will not just make things like jealousy, violent tendencies, the need to be controlled, and people fearing those different from them magically disappear. There will be people like that regardless of how you wish to remake the world unless you find a way to genetically engineer it all out of us. Because all of those things go back to our primate roots.
i didn’t mean to imply you said capitalism is natural. i meant there’s nothing natural about it yet the entire world revolves around it and has been for quite a while. if you put a system in place human nature is irrelevant. murder is “natural”. we have laws against it. anarchism shouldn’t be just total chaos, it just removes unnecessary hierarchies.
things like jealousy and violence are usually linked to economic and social hardship, and in a fair economic and free social system it should either go away or be the result of psychological problems which should have remedies in an anarchist system as well.
To quote you: “You will not just make things like jealousy, violent tendencies, the need to be controlled, and people fearing those different from them magically disappear.”
Please point to the words ‘violent mental illness’ in your original post. Now take your yellow highlighter pen and color it on your screen. Actually, use a Sharpie - what the hell. Maybe next time you’ll see it and remember not to speak out of turn.
If you mean to say that ‘violent tendencies’ is necessarily equivalent to ‘violent mental illness’, I would counter that they are two different things. I would say that people in the armed forces have violent tendencies. Police officers have violent tendencies. But violent mental illness is a completely different thing. Violent mental illness implies that the violence is not a rational response to the situation at hand.
So, sorry I took away your little 'Gotcha!" moment.
Okay, well you can counter it but that is still what I meant to say.
And I didn’t do any sort of gotcha comment. That’s not something I do. I resent the suggestion. If you’re going to just make uncivil accusations, we can stop this right now.
Communism is just a desire/plan for having democratic control over the economic sphere as well as the political sphere. The authoritarian stuff is just some people taking a more rapid/paternalistic approach to achieving it.
Read The State and Revolution. Communists support the replacement of bourgeois “democracy” with far more democratic structures via a popular revolution. Asserting the will of the many against the will of the minority is democratic.
Revolution is a mass popular movement to remove the minority from power to install the majority. A revolutionary movement without mass backing is not successful. Revolution is not done via election, yes, but that does not mean it is not democratic.
Communism is based on revolution, to remove the bad apples, not on democracy & voting.
Communism uses a revolution to create a more democratic system than the prior dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.
You all in this thread are like Good!=Bad ? Nooo there is good in bad!!
No idea what this means.
Democracy and Communism are two very (very) distinct systems. What did you do in school to confound or conflate the two of them?
Communists advocate for mass popular movement and the installation of a democratic worker-state that will wither away over time into an administration of things, rather than a policing of people.
I get what you are going at, but I just hate the muddying of the waters.
Thanks for the link but I know enough about political systems (theoretical and real, and those to oretend be) and don’t need some random indoctrination ;-)
Communists advocate asserting the will of the majority to make a more democratic system. Both sides are democratic, even if they aren’t reformist.
Thanks for the link but I know enough about political systems (theoretical and real, and those to oretend be) and don’t need some random indoctrination ;-)
How is it “indoctrination?” Why speak about Communism at all if you don’t know what Communists are talking about in the first place?
I do know what communism is, I do not need to read some random book you refer to to “understand”.
So I should read books that communists are talking about?
That’s indoctrination 101.
Go get a history book instead or trying to pump up your communism with cozy democracy.
Democracy is good, communism is an utopian dream that is very nice but never functions, like anarchism and a bunch of others. But I guess your book says that it can work, like for real this time.
You don’t need to answer, we’re on completely different wavelengths here.
Good luck with your communism though, I’m staying in democracy!
I do know what communism is, I do not need to read some random book you refer to to “understand”.
So I should read books that communists are talking about?
Evidently you do not understand if you don’t even know what Communists advocate and are unwilling to learn, despite your protests otherwise.
Go get a history book instead or trying to pump up your communism with cozy democracy.
I have, I recommend Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti. Super good book on what did and didn’t work in the USSR, and how it was dissolved, and how the Capitalist aftermath killed 7 million people. Communism is perfectly compatible with democracy because it’s democratic.
Democracy is good, communism is an utopian dream that is very nice but never functions, like anarchism and a bunch of others. But I guess your book says that it can work, like for real this time.
Communism did and does work. Communists are anti-Utopian, they don’t believe there’s a magic system you can just will into existence if everyone believes hard enough, but instead must be built. I suggest reading Socialism: Utopian and Scientific for more information, it goes over the failures of Utopian Socialists like the Owenites and how Marxism is Scientific instead.
You don’t need to answer, we’re on completely different wavelengths here.
Evidently. I advocate for reading and learning about subjects before speaking about them, and you advocate for deliberately not reading lest you be “corrupted” or “indoctrinated.” I have engaged with Liberalism all my life, and don’t consider myself “indoctrinated” by it despite that, so I don’t think reading a single book or two will “indoctrinate” you.
Good luck with your communism though, I’m staying in democracy!
Again, Communism is democratic, just not reformist.
Communism != Democracy.
You are maybe thinking of socio democracy.
For the tankies, spot on though.
Edit: what the hell people, communism is power to the people through revolution, there’s no fucking democracy in it.
Democracy is democracy, not communism smh.
Edit: In a democratic way I guess, all my comments were removed. Lots of commie bots here lol
on the contrary, communism is the final form of democracy.
capitalism != democracy because capital owners have a disproportionate amount of social, economic and political power, if not all. in a capitalist society the laws and police are there largely to protect and preserve capital and not you.
I would suggest that the final form would be anarcho-syndicalism.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism
I also think our basic human natures make such cooperative systems unlikely on any large scale.
I’m using communism as a bit of a catch-all term. the specifics are not my concern so long as the people hold the power.
and i disagree with your statement there. human nature is whatever we do with it. there’s nothing natural about capitalism.
I didn’t say anything about capitalism being natural. I said the final stage, anarcho-syndicalism, is probably unachievable. And no, human nature is not whatever we do with it. You will not just make things like jealousy, violent tendencies, the need to be controlled, and people fearing those different from them magically disappear. There will be people like that regardless of how you wish to remake the world unless you find a way to genetically engineer it all out of us. Because all of those things go back to our primate roots.
i didn’t mean to imply you said capitalism is natural. i meant there’s nothing natural about it yet the entire world revolves around it and has been for quite a while. if you put a system in place human nature is irrelevant. murder is “natural”. we have laws against it. anarchism shouldn’t be just total chaos, it just removes unnecessary hierarchies.
things like jealousy and violence are usually linked to economic and social hardship, and in a fair economic and free social system it should either go away or be the result of psychological problems which should have remedies in an anarchist system as well.
Psychological problems only have humane remedies in such a system if the person with the problem agrees to the remedy. What if they don’t?
i don’t agree. if you’re an aggressor, it’s not inhumane to require you to stop. a free society doesn’t mean you’re free to hurt people.
Require how? How would this be enforced?
Education?
How do you educate away violent mental illness?
To quote you: “You will not just make things like jealousy, violent tendencies, the need to be controlled, and people fearing those different from them magically disappear.”
Please point to the words ‘violent mental illness’ in your original post. Now take your yellow highlighter pen and color it on your screen. Actually, use a Sharpie - what the hell. Maybe next time you’ll see it and remember not to speak out of turn.
If you mean to say that ‘violent tendencies’ is necessarily equivalent to ‘violent mental illness’, I would counter that they are two different things. I would say that people in the armed forces have violent tendencies. Police officers have violent tendencies. But violent mental illness is a completely different thing. Violent mental illness implies that the violence is not a rational response to the situation at hand.
So, sorry I took away your little 'Gotcha!" moment.
Okay, well you can counter it but that is still what I meant to say.
And I didn’t do any sort of gotcha comment. That’s not something I do. I resent the suggestion. If you’re going to just make uncivil accusations, we can stop this right now.
Well, I mean, we are capital in a sense…
Communism is just a desire/plan for having democratic control over the economic sphere as well as the political sphere. The authoritarian stuff is just some people taking a more rapid/paternalistic approach to achieving it.
This thread is just getting better.
Communism is not authoritarian, you’re mixing up dictatorships calling themselves communists with communism.
Words are important.
Read The State and Revolution. Communists support the replacement of bourgeois “democracy” with far more democratic structures via a popular revolution. Asserting the will of the many against the will of the minority is democratic.
Revolution isn’t democracy.
Communism is based on revolution, to remove the bad apples, not on democracy & voting.
You all in this thread are like Good!=Bad ? Nooo there is good in bad!!
Democracy and Communism are two very (very) distinct systems. What did you do in school to confound or conflate the two of them?!
Revolution is a mass popular movement to remove the minority from power to install the majority. A revolutionary movement without mass backing is not successful. Revolution is not done via election, yes, but that does not mean it is not democratic.
Communism uses a revolution to create a more democratic system than the prior dictatorship of the bourgeoisie.
No idea what this means.
Communists advocate for mass popular movement and the installation of a democratic worker-state that will wither away over time into an administration of things, rather than a policing of people.
Read the book I linked.
Democratic and democracy isn’t the same thing.
I get what you are going at, but I just hate the muddying of the waters.
Thanks for the link but I know enough about political systems (theoretical and real, and those to oretend be) and don’t need some random indoctrination ;-)
Communists advocate asserting the will of the majority to make a more democratic system. Both sides are democratic, even if they aren’t reformist.
How is it “indoctrination?” Why speak about Communism at all if you don’t know what Communists are talking about in the first place?
I do know what communism is, I do not need to read some random book you refer to to “understand”.
So I should read books that communists are talking about?
That’s indoctrination 101.
Go get a history book instead or trying to pump up your communism with cozy democracy.
Democracy is good, communism is an utopian dream that is very nice but never functions, like anarchism and a bunch of others. But I guess your book says that it can work, like for real this time.
You don’t need to answer, we’re on completely different wavelengths here.
Good luck with your communism though, I’m staying in democracy!
Evidently you do not understand if you don’t even know what Communists advocate and are unwilling to learn, despite your protests otherwise.
I have, I recommend Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti. Super good book on what did and didn’t work in the USSR, and how it was dissolved, and how the Capitalist aftermath killed 7 million people. Communism is perfectly compatible with democracy because it’s democratic.
Communism did and does work. Communists are anti-Utopian, they don’t believe there’s a magic system you can just will into existence if everyone believes hard enough, but instead must be built. I suggest reading Socialism: Utopian and Scientific for more information, it goes over the failures of Utopian Socialists like the Owenites and how Marxism is Scientific instead.
Evidently. I advocate for reading and learning about subjects before speaking about them, and you advocate for deliberately not reading lest you be “corrupted” or “indoctrinated.” I have engaged with Liberalism all my life, and don’t consider myself “indoctrinated” by it despite that, so I don’t think reading a single book or two will “indoctrinate” you.
Again, Communism is democratic, just not reformist.
Removed by mod
never… except all the times they have
Don’t waste your time with permanently online commies
They are too self unaware to even know how dumb they sound and unfortunately infest this site like some kind of fruit flies. Harmless but annoying
I even sometimes collect their hot takes for public viewing elsewhere. It is never ending source of entertainment
Communism and Democracy are not mutually exclusive, they are on two different axes.
You’re thinking of Communism and Capitalism, which are polar opposites.
However, revolution is a form of democracy. Direct action by the People.