we need to abolish private property so everybody has equal power.
Abolishing private property isn’t about equalizing power, necessarily. It’s to end Capitalist production, which is necessarily exploitative and results in Monopoly Capitalism, aka Imperialism. Abolishing Private Property allows us to produce based on needs, not profits for a few individuals.
we class of people to maintain public ownership
Communists advocate for the abolition of classes.
After all, how can we enforce public ownership without a more powerful class of enforcers?
That’s a pretty terrible misreading of Communist structures. Communists advocate for abolition of the State, via creating a government as an “administration of things,” similar to how the Post Office functions, but for all of production. The goal of protecting the revolution is done by the Proletariat, the most advanced among them making up the Vanguard. There isn’t a separate “class.”
What does it mean to have a misreading in this context (last point)? You are just reiterating what they said but reassuring us that the most “advanced” among them are not going to turn into a ruling class because…?
Any form of political power is poison. You don’t get to a state-less, egalitarian society by going in the exact opposite direction, by enforcing a ruling class and an hierarchy like any else.
And you can see this practically not in any massacre, genocide, famine or war communist countries have inflicted, these are up for discussion. The actual evidence that this is not the right path is in the lack of accountability of the governing Party under communism, the lack of freedom of speech inside that party and the decision making body, the absolute discipline required to be in it or you get kicked out for having a different opinion for any topic, the gradual increase in authoritarianism by it and the Party’s gradual alienation from the people. These all are fundamental structural problems that stem from the fact that you set out to solve a problem by endorsing it and practising it.
People are never going to free themselves from hierarchy and the state if they don’t learn to live without it in practise, take decisions for themselves, develop the skills, knowledge and tactics to abolish it etc. You are/become what you practise in your life, not what you preach.
What does it mean to have a misreading in this context (last point)? You are just reiterating what they said but reassuring us that the most “advanced” among them are not going to turn into a ruling class because…?
What is a class? If you can meaningfully explain what a class is, then you will understand the answer. Here’s an example: is the Post Office manager a separate class from the drivers? No.
Any form of political power is poison. You don’t get to a state-less, egalitarian society by going in the exact opposite direction, by enforcing a ruling class and an hierarchy like any else.
What is a State, and what do Communists mean when they say Communism will be State-less? What is a ruling class? If I say a post-office driver is a Capitalist, this is wrong. Correct analysis of class dynamics, where they draw their power, and their social relation with others, determines Class. Engels specifically describes the withering of the state as a transformation from a tool by which one class oppresses another into an administration of things.
And you can see this practically not in any massacre, genocide, famine or war communist countries have inflicted, these are up for discussion. The actual evidence that this is not the right path is in the lack of accountability of the governing Party under communism, the lack of freedom of speech inside that party and the decision making body, the absolute discipline required to be in it or you get kicked out for having a different opinion for any topic, the gradual increase in authoritarianism by it and the Party’s gradual alienation from the people. These all are fundamental structural problems that stem from the fact that you set out to solve a problem by endorsing it and practising it.
These are frankly false statements. There is accountability, there is freedom of discussion. Being a fascist or liberal will indeed get you kicked out, as it should. Communists don’t believe the problem is with the State, but with Capitalism, and as such use the State against the bourgeoisie to end Capitalism.
People are never going to free themselves from hierarchy and the state if they don’t learn to live without it in practise, take decisions for themselves, develop the skills, knowledge and tactics to abolish it etc. You are/become what you practise in your life, not what you preach.
Communists don’t believe “hierarchy” is a problem. That’s an anarchist concern.
All in all, I highly encourage you to read both Blackshirts and Reds, as well as The State and Revolution. The former will help recontextualize Communism and Communist states, correcting popular myths and taking a realistic, critical look at AES. The latter will elaborate on the Communist theory of the State, which is fundamentally different from the Anarchist theory of the State. Both are generally easy reads.
I don’t get why you purposefully obfuscate what ruling class I am referring to. What kind of example are managers and drivers when I am clearly talking about the people comprising the decision making body or Communist party under communism? I think that’s simple enough and also the fact that any communist government that survived long enough gradually became more and more authoritarian, more detached from the people - never in the other direction. The evidence is there and we both know it. The burden of proof that this isn’t the case is on you, not me…
You simply dismissed my claims without any evidence on that. Although you seem to like to meticulously answer every sentence separately, you dismiss the core of the argument. I understand most communism movements start off with noble and admirable intentions and I’m not ignoring this, but the fundamental issue here is that in the longterm, by design, in order to preserve state power, for whatever reason, you’d be heading to the opposite direction of a stateless society.
I’ve read enough Lenin to understand this from his descriptions of the ideal Party. I don’t need reading recommendations, thank you. I am not saying anything profound here, this is like mainstream critique of marxism.
I don’t get why you purposefully obfuscate what ruling class I am referring to. What kind of example are managers and drivers when I am clearly talking about the people comprising the decision making body or Communist party under communism? I think that’s simple enough and also the fact that any communist government that survived long enough gradually became more and more authoritarian, more detached from the people - never in the other direction. The evidence is there and we both know it. The burden of proof that this isn’t the case is on you, not me…
The Communist Party was not a class, hence why I asked you to prove it to be.
You claim it’s a “fact” that Communist countries “get more authoritarian,” and left that hanging and unsupported.
In both cases, the burden of proof is on you.
You simply dismissed my claims without any evidence on that. Although you seem to like to meticulously answer every sentence separately, you dismiss the core of the argument. I understand most communism movements start off with noble and admirable intentions and I’m not ignoring this, but the fundamental issue here is that in the longterm, by design, in order to preserve state power, for whatever reason, you’d be heading to the opposite direction of a stateless society.
I dismissed blanket claims with no reasoning or evidence. There was no logic, just blanket statements. Additionally, you seem to be under the impression that Communist countries have ever been at a point where they could abolish the state entirely, which in the age of Imperialism that’s impossible due to foreign interference. There’s good reason why Anarchism has never lasted at scale.
I’ve read enough Lenin to understand this from his descriptions of the ideal Party. I don’t need reading recommendations, thank you. I am not saying anything profound here, this is like mainstream critique of marxism.
You’ve demonstrated a lack of understanding of both the history of Communist states and the general Communist theory of the State. Just because you are making common anarchist critiques of Marxism doesn’t make them correct, hence why I have tried to highlight the differences between the goals of anarchism and Communism, the nuances in the Communist theory of the State you appear to be unaware of, and provided additional sources in case you want to learn more for yourself.
If you want to keep engaging, I ask that you at least back up some of your points with either evidence or logic, and take into account that Communists aren’t Anarchists and thus have different goals and methods, otherwise I think we are just going to keep talking past each other.
You say it’s the goal of the proletariat to protect the revolution, but why would they? Each proletariat would benefit from the revolution’s failure- they could live better lives as the bourgeois. You talk about the proletariat like they are some monolithic entity, with a single mind and goal. You talk big about helping the individual, but cannot see beyond their class. The proletariat is a person, with needs, desires and opinions. What father would hold the abstract ideals of the “revolution” over the life of his sick daughter? Any father I know would do anything for the safety of his children, even hoard life-saving medicine from others.
You say it’s the goal of the proletariat to protect the revolution, but why would they? Each proletariat would benefit from the revolution’s failure- they could live better lives as the bourgeois
This is absurd. That’s like saying the French Revolution should’ve been sabotaged because the Proletariat would have fared better as nobility.
You talk about the proletariat like they are some monolithic entity, with a single mind and goal.
No, I do not. I speak of the Proletariat as a class, which shares class interests and class dynamics, ie they are all workers who create the value exploited from them.
The proletariat is a person, with needs, desires and opinions. What father would hold the abstract ideals of the “revolution” over the life of his sick daughter?
What is this wild tangent? Why do you think a father would side against his and his daughters interests and continue to live in sqaulor? Do you think revolution is an aesthetic choice, and not a practical conclusion?
Any father I know would do anything for the safety of his children, even hoard life-saving medicine from others.
Having been the one who brought it up, (and since I got here first) I guess I will super duper reluctantly be the enforcer. I super don’t want to y’all guys! But this is for the good of the collective!
Communist logix
Abolishing private property isn’t about equalizing power, necessarily. It’s to end Capitalist production, which is necessarily exploitative and results in Monopoly Capitalism, aka Imperialism. Abolishing Private Property allows us to produce based on needs, not profits for a few individuals.
Communists advocate for the abolition of classes.
That’s a pretty terrible misreading of Communist structures. Communists advocate for abolition of the State, via creating a government as an “administration of things,” similar to how the Post Office functions, but for all of production. The goal of protecting the revolution is done by the Proletariat, the most advanced among them making up the Vanguard. There isn’t a separate “class.”
What does it mean to have a misreading in this context (last point)? You are just reiterating what they said but reassuring us that the most “advanced” among them are not going to turn into a ruling class because…?
Any form of political power is poison. You don’t get to a state-less, egalitarian society by going in the exact opposite direction, by enforcing a ruling class and an hierarchy like any else.
And you can see this practically not in any massacre, genocide, famine or war communist countries have inflicted, these are up for discussion. The actual evidence that this is not the right path is in the lack of accountability of the governing Party under communism, the lack of freedom of speech inside that party and the decision making body, the absolute discipline required to be in it or you get kicked out for having a different opinion for any topic, the gradual increase in authoritarianism by it and the Party’s gradual alienation from the people. These all are fundamental structural problems that stem from the fact that you set out to solve a problem by endorsing it and practising it.
People are never going to free themselves from hierarchy and the state if they don’t learn to live without it in practise, take decisions for themselves, develop the skills, knowledge and tactics to abolish it etc. You are/become what you practise in your life, not what you preach.
What is a class? If you can meaningfully explain what a class is, then you will understand the answer. Here’s an example: is the Post Office manager a separate class from the drivers? No.
What is a State, and what do Communists mean when they say Communism will be State-less? What is a ruling class? If I say a post-office driver is a Capitalist, this is wrong. Correct analysis of class dynamics, where they draw their power, and their social relation with others, determines Class. Engels specifically describes the withering of the state as a transformation from a tool by which one class oppresses another into an administration of things.
These are frankly false statements. There is accountability, there is freedom of discussion. Being a fascist or liberal will indeed get you kicked out, as it should. Communists don’t believe the problem is with the State, but with Capitalism, and as such use the State against the bourgeoisie to end Capitalism.
Communists don’t believe “hierarchy” is a problem. That’s an anarchist concern.
All in all, I highly encourage you to read both Blackshirts and Reds, as well as The State and Revolution. The former will help recontextualize Communism and Communist states, correcting popular myths and taking a realistic, critical look at AES. The latter will elaborate on the Communist theory of the State, which is fundamentally different from the Anarchist theory of the State. Both are generally easy reads.
I don’t get why you purposefully obfuscate what ruling class I am referring to. What kind of example are managers and drivers when I am clearly talking about the people comprising the decision making body or Communist party under communism? I think that’s simple enough and also the fact that any communist government that survived long enough gradually became more and more authoritarian, more detached from the people - never in the other direction. The evidence is there and we both know it. The burden of proof that this isn’t the case is on you, not me…
You simply dismissed my claims without any evidence on that. Although you seem to like to meticulously answer every sentence separately, you dismiss the core of the argument. I understand most communism movements start off with noble and admirable intentions and I’m not ignoring this, but the fundamental issue here is that in the longterm, by design, in order to preserve state power, for whatever reason, you’d be heading to the opposite direction of a stateless society.
I’ve read enough Lenin to understand this from his descriptions of the ideal Party. I don’t need reading recommendations, thank you. I am not saying anything profound here, this is like mainstream critique of marxism.
The Communist Party was not a class, hence why I asked you to prove it to be.
You claim it’s a “fact” that Communist countries “get more authoritarian,” and left that hanging and unsupported.
In both cases, the burden of proof is on you.
I dismissed blanket claims with no reasoning or evidence. There was no logic, just blanket statements. Additionally, you seem to be under the impression that Communist countries have ever been at a point where they could abolish the state entirely, which in the age of Imperialism that’s impossible due to foreign interference. There’s good reason why Anarchism has never lasted at scale.
You’ve demonstrated a lack of understanding of both the history of Communist states and the general Communist theory of the State. Just because you are making common anarchist critiques of Marxism doesn’t make them correct, hence why I have tried to highlight the differences between the goals of anarchism and Communism, the nuances in the Communist theory of the State you appear to be unaware of, and provided additional sources in case you want to learn more for yourself.
If you want to keep engaging, I ask that you at least back up some of your points with either evidence or logic, and take into account that Communists aren’t Anarchists and thus have different goals and methods, otherwise I think we are just going to keep talking past each other.
I gotta say, communists are great at branding lol
You say it’s the goal of the proletariat to protect the revolution, but why would they? Each proletariat would benefit from the revolution’s failure- they could live better lives as the bourgeois. You talk about the proletariat like they are some monolithic entity, with a single mind and goal. You talk big about helping the individual, but cannot see beyond their class. The proletariat is a person, with needs, desires and opinions. What father would hold the abstract ideals of the “revolution” over the life of his sick daughter? Any father I know would do anything for the safety of his children, even hoard life-saving medicine from others.
This is absurd. That’s like saying the French Revolution should’ve been sabotaged because the Proletariat would have fared better as nobility.
No, I do not. I speak of the Proletariat as a class, which shares class interests and class dynamics, ie they are all workers who create the value exploited from them.
What is this wild tangent? Why do you think a father would side against his and his daughters interests and continue to live in sqaulor? Do you think revolution is an aesthetic choice, and not a practical conclusion?
Revolution is when no medicine for sick daughters
Ok. I’m getting tired. You bested me this round. Have a nice day.
Having been the one who brought it up, (and since I got here first) I guess I will super duper reluctantly be the enforcer. I super don’t want to y’all guys! But this is for the good of the collective!