Unfortunately the Deprogram guys still refuse to set the record straight on the nature of the Russia-Ukraine conflict which leads to them attracting people whose ignorance, Russophobic bloodthirst, and imperialism compatible views are not being challenged. Case in point: just today in the comments of the new video on JT’s First Thought channel there were people who were still saying that the Ukraine war is “an inter-imperialist conflict”, were cheering on the assassination of the Russian war journalist in St Petersburg and wishing for Alexander Dugin’s death (not that we as communists need care much about Dugin whose ideology is quite confused and undeniably reactionary, but to call it fascist is a misrepresentation, and his importance has been greatly exaggerated…the point being it’s never a good sign when you find yourself on the same side as actual Nazis wishing that an enemy of said Nazis is murdered). It’s not a big step from those kinds of views to thinking that China is “authoritarian state-capitalist”, or that the BRI project is neo-colonialist/imperialist, and unless the Deprogram finally take a clear stance on Russia and China they will keep fostering a community that at the very least tolerates these sorts of views.
I had a Deprogram fan tell me Russia was imperialist and the Communist party is controlled opposition because apparently the podcast had a Russian communist come on and complain about the party being pro intervention to protect Donbas and they got purged for being anti-war.
I haven’t heard that episode but why are we immediately sympathetic to someone who got purged? Do we expect the Communist party of Russia to not apply Democratic Centralism? The party decided on the Intervention Question, those who don’t fall line should leave until they agree with the party again.
The CPRF understands the conflict is Colonial in nature. Ukraine is a hostile colony of the US and Donbas is resisting Colonization of their homeland. Ukraine made it law that the president must retake Crimea and Donbas. Ukraine was designed by the US to force Russia into war.
Especially with Yugopnik and Hakim being from countries colonized by NATO, they should see that Donbas is resisting Colonization rather than Ukraine resisting so-called Russian Colonization, it doesn’t even make sense economically. Before the Maidan Russia offered Ukraine a deal as equals while the EU deal imposed massive austerity that would shrink Ukraine’s economy within 10 years. Zelensky privatized Ukrainian land again and tried to sell it off to the world market. He banned labor unions, he banned every leftwing party. He failed to incorporate the Ukrainian Volunteer Army (Right Sector deviation), responsible for many war crimes, because they were above the state and the veteran class would turn on the government if he did. The leader of that battalion (which only recently joined the state) openly threatened to hang Zelensky if he were to consider the Minsk 2 agreements.
How is it not clear to “anti-Imperialists” that Ukraine has been colonized and weaponized against Russia? Zelensky is an obvious puppet, this was clear when the UVA refused to leave the front lines during the ceasefire (which they openly brag about breaking, hence why they remained independent from the state).
Can’t deprogram people if people who need deprogramming never show up. Those same listeners who think China is “authoritarian state capitalist” are going to find themselves reading comments like the one in the above-linked thread and interacting with people from communities like ours, and they’ll be receptive to those people because they’ll see them as fellow members of the Deprogram Community and not as Tankies. If and when they discover that they’re sharing community with MLs, they will have some personal contradictions to resolve about the values overlap.
There is some logic to what you say, but the problem is that the entire Deprogram trio already get labeled as “tankies”, even with the non-committal position they take on some of these issues. The fact that they speak positively of the former USSR, the fact that they frequently, if not as often or as forcefully as i would like, praise certain parts of what China is doing and speak out against anti-China narratives, the fact that they criticize NATO and the US first and foremost, this is enough for the liberals who are pretending to be leftists to call them “apologists for authoritarian regimes”. So then why not go all the way?
I think we have here another one of those disagreements about tactics where it is impossible to say who is right and who is wrong until we see how things turn out and we have the benefit of hindsight. It may very well be that their calculation that they will attract more people this way and ultimately turn them into principled communists turns out to be right. It may be that i am just too impatient and they are thinking more strategically and more long-term than me. I am willing to be proved wrong on this. But to me it just seems too opportunistic at this time to still keep up this veneer of neutrality given the degree to which the confrontation between the imperialist camp and the anti-hegemonic coalition (Russia, China, Iran) has escalated.
…it is impossible to say who is right and who is wrong until we see how things turn out and we have the benefit of hindsight.
Yup.
Insert something here about Overton windows and not being so far from the frame that you can’t affect how it moves. I’m sure you’ve heard it before. No need to repeat it. 🫠
It is evident that he is very conscious of what he is doing and why, clearly his views are nowhere near as ambiguous as some of his or the Deprogram’s content would superficially suggest, and he explains that he purposely takes a more subtle approach in order to be able to break step-by-step through the anti-communist indoctrination that so many people have.
And it is also clear that their content, even the more “advanced” stuff that goes beyong the socialism 101 videos that JT himself does on his main channel, is not really trying to “preach to the choir” as it were, i.e. it’s not just for those of us who are already firmly in the Marxist-Leninist camp but tries to reach a broader audience. I just think that even if there still needs to be some hand-holding when it comes to getting people not to be afraid of communism, as far as the topic of Russia and China goes the conflict that is brewing in the world today is too important, its implications and potential dangers too great to continue fencesitting.
An anti-war movement urgently needs to be built up in the West, and you cannot credibly oppose war, sanctions, etc. so long as you still allow people to go on believing that Ukraine is “just defending itself”, or that China is somehow mistreating its people. That opens the door to justifications for war no matter how much you insist that you are against war.
Unfortunately the Deprogram guys still refuse to set the record straight on the nature of the Russia-Ukraine conflict which leads to them attracting people whose ignorance, Russophobic bloodthirst, and imperialism compatible views are not being challenged. Case in point: just today in the comments of the new video on JT’s First Thought channel there were people who were still saying that the Ukraine war is “an inter-imperialist conflict”, were cheering on the assassination of the Russian war journalist in St Petersburg and wishing for Alexander Dugin’s death (not that we as communists need care much about Dugin whose ideology is quite confused and undeniably reactionary, but to call it fascist is a misrepresentation, and his importance has been greatly exaggerated…the point being it’s never a good sign when you find yourself on the same side as actual Nazis wishing that an enemy of said Nazis is murdered). It’s not a big step from those kinds of views to thinking that China is “authoritarian state-capitalist”, or that the BRI project is neo-colonialist/imperialist, and unless the Deprogram finally take a clear stance on Russia and China they will keep fostering a community that at the very least tolerates these sorts of views.
I had a Deprogram fan tell me Russia was imperialist and the Communist party is controlled opposition because apparently the podcast had a Russian communist come on and complain about the party being pro intervention to protect Donbas and they got purged for being anti-war.
I haven’t heard that episode but why are we immediately sympathetic to someone who got purged? Do we expect the Communist party of Russia to not apply Democratic Centralism? The party decided on the Intervention Question, those who don’t fall line should leave until they agree with the party again.
The CPRF understands the conflict is Colonial in nature. Ukraine is a hostile colony of the US and Donbas is resisting Colonization of their homeland. Ukraine made it law that the president must retake Crimea and Donbas. Ukraine was designed by the US to force Russia into war.
Especially with Yugopnik and Hakim being from countries colonized by NATO, they should see that Donbas is resisting Colonization rather than Ukraine resisting so-called Russian Colonization, it doesn’t even make sense economically. Before the Maidan Russia offered Ukraine a deal as equals while the EU deal imposed massive austerity that would shrink Ukraine’s economy within 10 years. Zelensky privatized Ukrainian land again and tried to sell it off to the world market. He banned labor unions, he banned every leftwing party. He failed to incorporate the Ukrainian Volunteer Army (Right Sector deviation), responsible for many war crimes, because they were above the state and the veteran class would turn on the government if he did. The leader of that battalion (which only recently joined the state) openly threatened to hang Zelensky if he were to consider the Minsk 2 agreements.
How is it not clear to “anti-Imperialists” that Ukraine has been colonized and weaponized against Russia? Zelensky is an obvious puppet, this was clear when the UVA refused to leave the front lines during the ceasefire (which they openly brag about breaking, hence why they remained independent from the state).
Liberal conditioning to individualism. Literally all media are choke full of “individual fighting against unjust system” narratives.
Great post I was wondering what their deal was
Can’t deprogram people if people who need deprogramming never show up. Those same listeners who think China is “authoritarian state capitalist” are going to find themselves reading comments like the one in the above-linked thread and interacting with people from communities like ours, and they’ll be receptive to those people because they’ll see them as fellow members of the Deprogram Community and not as Tankies. If and when they discover that they’re sharing community with MLs, they will have some personal contradictions to resolve about the values overlap.
👏 👏 👏
There is some logic to what you say, but the problem is that the entire Deprogram trio already get labeled as “tankies”, even with the non-committal position they take on some of these issues. The fact that they speak positively of the former USSR, the fact that they frequently, if not as often or as forcefully as i would like, praise certain parts of what China is doing and speak out against anti-China narratives, the fact that they criticize NATO and the US first and foremost, this is enough for the liberals who are pretending to be leftists to call them “apologists for authoritarian regimes”. So then why not go all the way?
I think we have here another one of those disagreements about tactics where it is impossible to say who is right and who is wrong until we see how things turn out and we have the benefit of hindsight. It may very well be that their calculation that they will attract more people this way and ultimately turn them into principled communists turns out to be right. It may be that i am just too impatient and they are thinking more strategically and more long-term than me. I am willing to be proved wrong on this. But to me it just seems too opportunistic at this time to still keep up this veneer of neutrality given the degree to which the confrontation between the imperialist camp and the anti-hegemonic coalition (Russia, China, Iran) has escalated.
Yup.
Insert something here about Overton windows and not being so far from the frame that you can’t affect how it moves. I’m sure you’ve heard it before. No need to repeat it. 🫠
By the way, this interview with JT showcases how he actually thinks about these things: https://www.youtube.com/live/GwgR4Q-rBpc
It is evident that he is very conscious of what he is doing and why, clearly his views are nowhere near as ambiguous as some of his or the Deprogram’s content would superficially suggest, and he explains that he purposely takes a more subtle approach in order to be able to break step-by-step through the anti-communist indoctrination that so many people have.
And it is also clear that their content, even the more “advanced” stuff that goes beyong the socialism 101 videos that JT himself does on his main channel, is not really trying to “preach to the choir” as it were, i.e. it’s not just for those of us who are already firmly in the Marxist-Leninist camp but tries to reach a broader audience. I just think that even if there still needs to be some hand-holding when it comes to getting people not to be afraid of communism, as far as the topic of Russia and China goes the conflict that is brewing in the world today is too important, its implications and potential dangers too great to continue fencesitting.
An anti-war movement urgently needs to be built up in the West, and you cannot credibly oppose war, sanctions, etc. so long as you still allow people to go on believing that Ukraine is “just defending itself”, or that China is somehow mistreating its people. That opens the door to justifications for war no matter how much you insist that you are against war.