How else would you reply to someone wanting to know more about a topic?
By making a coherent argument?
The other alternative is a wall of text from someone
The alternative to say… hours of video material? “Do your own research” is a bullshit argument, because you’re making the claim that the other person is ignorant despite not addressing anything you think they’re ignorant about.
It’s like an ad hominem. People think it’s just when you’re mean to people, but it’s not. An ad hominem is when you make an argument that relies on the personal properties of another person. Ie “you’re [whatever property] so you can’t possibly know anything about [whateverthesubject]”. Just making an insult does not constitute an ad hominem. I could say “you’re wrong because [coherent argument A] and [coherent conclusion B], also, you’re a fuckwit”, and it wouldn’t be an ad hominem.
It works a bit the same way with what you’re doing here. Sure, “you need to read up on this” is a valid thing to say… occasionally, but it’s not something you can use as an argument. “The Earth isn’t flat, you dumbo.” “YES IT IS. I saw evidence in a 7 hour YouTube video. You can’t say I’m wrong until you watch it and address every single thing they say. Do your own research!”
Sure. But that’s only if you take everything in the internet as an argument. This meme is not inherently about an argument. The caption is “How do I become more informed” not “I don’t agree with you on these things”. If this was framed as an argument then I could see the inherent fault in just pointing to a video. But not every discussion on the internet is an argument and the original meme does not frame the initial question as such.
If someone post on a community I frequent about wanting to become more informed I would absolutely send them to a video. Because I believe the video does a better job of explaining it than I do. If they have more specific questions afterwards. I would reply to them as best as I could (while stressing that I’m not as good at condensing information).
Also to say you need to refute every single point in an argument until you’re wrong is stupid. This is the internet not an argument board. If you’re not the kind to play to the audience you can just say “That feels wrong and I don’t care enough to find out why”. There are literally no stakes here.
Sure. But that’s only if you take everything in the internet as an argument. This meme is not inherently about an argument.
Nope. Something not being an “official debate” doesn’t mean that people aren’t making arguments. Like you are now, by arguing that people don’t make arguments.
No ofc not everything is an argument. But seriously, you can’t pretend in good faith that we’re talking about people asking for some crazy videos in a crazy community, as opposed to crazy people making claims like “the Earth is flat”, “the election was stolen”, “Democrats control the weather” etc trying to support those with “DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH” when their garbage is challenged.
Also to say you need to refute every single point in an argument until you’re wrong is stupid.
Never implied that. Perhaps a bit more reading comprehension is in order?
I’m starting to doubt my ability to write coherent comments so I don’t know If this is ok but I’ll post it anyway.
I’m not making arguments. I’m discussing your comment. You are framing my discussion as arguments. I’m not against you. I’m just commenting on the things you say in order to get a better understanding. Maybe some of the things are arguments but I don’t care enough to classify them as such. Arguing is not my point, discussion is. And some times It’s useful to frame the discussion as an argument and sometimes it isn’t.
you can’t pretend in good faith that we’re talking about people asking for some crazy videos in a crazy community
Why not? Isn’t that the title of the post? The only one bringing in conspiracy theories are you.
Never implied that. Perhaps a bit more reading comprehension is in order?
I was commenting on this bit of your comment.
"[…] You can’t say I’m wrong until you watch it and address every single thing they say. […]
and this so elegantly showcases the point I’m trying to make. (You can make points without arguing) You look at everything I say as an argument against you even if I am agreeing with your example. I imagine a lot of context goes missing in text, which is a shame.
Then why so tense there, buddy?
when I wrote that comment I wasn’t. Now I am, because your acting hostile towards me and I don’t like that.
For instance I assume you understand that you’re clearly implying something with your comment. Something which I might disagree with. Communication is so hard that I forget, what is it called again, when two people are talking and have diverging views on the thing they’re talking about? I’m sure there’s a word for that…
OK fine. I was going to leave it at that but if you’re going to keep going then so am I.
I’m going to use a code block because I don’t want to worry about formatting.
lets begin with the full context.
The post has the title of "How do I become more informed on your quadrant?"
with a political compass depicting common responses that people in those
quadrants have to that question.
You responded to the post with a comment: 'All just versions of "do your own research", [..]'
Naturally, as I am a person on the original meme who would respond like the meme says
I took slight offense to this. I attempted to voice that offense with a question
"How else would you reply to someone wanting to know more about a topic?"
I then followed it up with other thoughts I had because I like making comments that are
more than just one thing.
You quote responded with "By making a coherent argument?" which lead me to write the
beginning of my response "That's only if you take everything in the internet as an argument."
This is because if someone asked me the question the title of the post is asking I wouldn't
consider that an argument and rather point them towards someone who can communicate
better than me. (I think this thread shows exactly why. Although I believe this is partly your
fault as well)
From here the conversation devolves in a way that is quite hard to tell what's going on so I'm
not going to bother giving a detailed description but there are points I want to touch on.
Like you saying you're not acting hostile. I don't think that's up to you to say.
Sure your intentions may not be hostile but how someone else interprets the way you talk
is up to them. Maybe I am "reading into it" but there clearly is something to read into.
I admit the point I said about arguments don't make much sense. Technically they were arguments
and I think I'm just wrong. But the point I'm trying to make is that you shouldn't frame everything
as an argument.
But this last comment definitely feels at least a little mean. And I used to think it comes naturally
to me too but if your not understanding me then apparently not.
Like you saying you’re not acting hostile. I don’t think that’s up to you to say.
It most definitely is. People have a tendency to project emotions on to neutral text, and projecting negative emotions is much more common. There’s zero malice or hostility in my comments. I know this because I don’t feel any while writing this, so any perceived hostility is just that… a perception. A flawed perception. An understandable one for which I don’t judge anyone, but still a misperception.
how someone else interprets the way you talk
is up to them
Ofc it is. But what I mean is not. Here’s a very relayed video.
“How else would you reply to someone wanting to know more about a topic?”
I say “by making a coherent argument”, but it would’ve been better if I had said “by using good rhetoric”. It’s just less colloquial, so I went with “argument”. I think most people still got the context though. As in the context of “the internet is filled with arguments and too often people confuse valid rhetoric and just linking an URL.”
“Do your own research” practically always come from people who have watched long videos on some controversial subject like the Earth being flat instead of an oblate spheroid, buy into it, but then aren’t able to produce an iota of rhetoric to relay any of the arguments they’ve bought into.
No, ofc not everything is an argument. I’m pretty sure you also knew that I actually know that.
By making a coherent argument?
The alternative to say… hours of video material? “Do your own research” is a bullshit argument, because you’re making the claim that the other person is ignorant despite not addressing anything you think they’re ignorant about.
It’s like an ad hominem. People think it’s just when you’re mean to people, but it’s not. An ad hominem is when you make an argument that relies on the personal properties of another person. Ie “you’re [whatever property] so you can’t possibly know anything about [whateverthesubject]”. Just making an insult does not constitute an ad hominem. I could say “you’re wrong because [coherent argument A] and [coherent conclusion B], also, you’re a fuckwit”, and it wouldn’t be an ad hominem.
It works a bit the same way with what you’re doing here. Sure, “you need to read up on this” is a valid thing to say… occasionally, but it’s not something you can use as an argument. “The Earth isn’t flat, you dumbo.” “YES IT IS. I saw evidence in a 7 hour YouTube video. You can’t say I’m wrong until you watch it and address every single thing they say. Do your own research!”
Listing things does not an argument make
Sure. But that’s only if you take everything in the internet as an argument. This meme is not inherently about an argument. The caption is “How do I become more informed” not “I don’t agree with you on these things”. If this was framed as an argument then I could see the inherent fault in just pointing to a video. But not every discussion on the internet is an argument and the original meme does not frame the initial question as such.
If someone post on a community I frequent about wanting to become more informed I would absolutely send them to a video. Because I believe the video does a better job of explaining it than I do. If they have more specific questions afterwards. I would reply to them as best as I could (while stressing that I’m not as good at condensing information).
Also to say you need to refute every single point in an argument until you’re wrong is stupid. This is the internet not an argument board. If you’re not the kind to play to the audience you can just say “That feels wrong and I don’t care enough to find out why”. There are literally no stakes here.
Nope. Something not being an “official debate” doesn’t mean that people aren’t making arguments. Like you are now, by arguing that people don’t make arguments.
No ofc not everything is an argument. But seriously, you can’t pretend in good faith that we’re talking about people asking for some crazy videos in a crazy community, as opposed to crazy people making claims like “the Earth is flat”, “the election was stolen”, “Democrats control the weather” etc trying to support those with “DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH” when their garbage is challenged.
Never implied that. Perhaps a bit more reading comprehension is in order?
Then why so tense there, buddy?
I’m starting to doubt my ability to write coherent comments so I don’t know If this is ok but I’ll post it anyway.
I’m not making arguments. I’m discussing your comment. You are framing my discussion as arguments. I’m not against you. I’m just commenting on the things you say in order to get a better understanding. Maybe some of the things are arguments but I don’t care enough to classify them as such. Arguing is not my point, discussion is. And some times It’s useful to frame the discussion as an argument and sometimes it isn’t.
Why not? Isn’t that the title of the post? The only one bringing in conspiracy theories are you.
I was commenting on this bit of your comment.
and this so elegantly showcases the point I’m trying to make. (You can make points without arguing) You look at everything I say as an argument against you even if I am agreeing with your example. I imagine a lot of context goes missing in text, which is a shame.
when I wrote that comment I wasn’t. Now I am, because your acting hostile towards me and I don’t like that.
“I’m not here” - man who’s here
An argument: “an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one.”
You have an opposing view as to what this discussion is about. One might even argue this is a"heated" exchange.
I don’t, really. I’m just elaborating on the point. Perhaps you have an opposing view on that matter?
I’m really not, you’re just reading into it.
Communication is hard.
Don’t worry, I’ll help you.
It’s always come very naturally to me.
For instance I assume you understand that you’re clearly implying something with your comment. Something which I might disagree with. Communication is so hard that I forget, what is it called again, when two people are talking and have diverging views on the thing they’re talking about? I’m sure there’s a word for that…
OK fine. I was going to leave it at that but if you’re going to keep going then so am I.
I’m going to use a code block because I don’t want to worry about formatting.
It most definitely is. People have a tendency to project emotions on to neutral text, and projecting negative emotions is much more common. There’s zero malice or hostility in my comments. I know this because I don’t feel any while writing this, so any perceived hostility is just that… a perception. A flawed perception. An understandable one for which I don’t judge anyone, but still a misperception.
Ofc it is. But what I mean is not. Here’s a very relayed video.
Why German sounds so aggressive.
I say “by making a coherent argument”, but it would’ve been better if I had said “by using good rhetoric”. It’s just less colloquial, so I went with “argument”. I think most people still got the context though. As in the context of “the internet is filled with arguments and too often people confuse valid rhetoric and just linking an URL.”
“Do your own research” practically always come from people who have watched long videos on some controversial subject like the Earth being flat instead of an oblate spheroid, buy into it, but then aren’t able to produce an iota of rhetoric to relay any of the arguments they’ve bought into.
No, ofc not everything is an argument. I’m pretty sure you also knew that I actually know that.