Linus is Finnish, maybe this is also a lesson: “Don’t brutalize random neighboring countries because in the future they might be in a position to fuck you in the ass.”?
I will dispute your framing, but why does it justify collective punishment and hatred if all people from a country?
I mean, the Winter War is kind of not a fond memory for them, though everybody loves some Sima Häyhä, one of the most righteous men of the 20th century.
At the time of the Winter War, Finland had existed for about 20 years, same as the USSR. Both emerged out of the Russian Empire. The USSR sought land and space for military defense against its Northern flank near St Petersburg, which was vulnerable, as well as, ideally, ports to seal from water invasions. Finland rejected every attempt at land exchanges, which was of course their right, but the USSR also, correctly, predicted that Finland would facilitate the Nazi advance and that this land was necessary to repel their war. Faced with an existential threat, they invaded Finland and took much of the land they needed and the war unfolded there exactly as predicted, with Finland rapidly becoming Nazi collaborators and putting down most of its internal resistance. The Continuation War followed, of course. To this day, they teach false histories about this, via the usual government censorship and creation of school curricula.
Sima Häyhä was hated by many early on and received many personal death threats to his face. His rehabilitation in pop culture is more of a thing from the 70d and 80s. Finland collaborated with Nazis and built death camps and was subsequently liberated by the USSR. With fascist groups disbanded and banned and the USSR elevated to the status of primary protagonist of winning the war against the Nazis, those who had supported the previous fascist-friendly/just plain fascist government became pretty unpopular for some time.
For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish “russian death camps” not in most of history textbooks?
Also it’s not unreasonable to hate the aggressor. So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It’s not like tribal collective punishment isn’t engrained in our blood.
For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish “russian death camps” not in most of history textbooks?
Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
Also it’s not unreasonable to hate the aggressor.
Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis. I am not arguing about whether everyday Finns might have had animosity towards Russia for a few years. I am talking about being the willing Northern front for Nazi Germany, deporting Jews to camps, rounding up tons of civilians and keeping them in starvation conditions.
So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It’s not like tribal collective punishment isn’t engrained in our blood.
This was not tribal, it was a nation state and the forces were political. Lapua members were the key Nazi collaborators and they were anticommunist ideologues long before the Winter War.
Please refrain from bullshit human nature arguments to justify Nazi collaboration.
Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
Most of history textbooks barely mention WWII by the same notion. I won’t argue I might know too little about the history of Finland. Although seeing how overwhelmingly current day Finns seem to oppose Russia and often mention the Winter War. It does seem that USSR was the worse of two evils there.
Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis.
That’s the point. They had a choise. Either side with the Allies and hence USSR (which fucked them up) or ally with Germany. It was an obvious only choise for them.
This was not tribal
The point is that tribal “us vs them” is just common. Same goes with countries. It depends if the group has a common identity.
Why do you even want to defend an empire?
What on earth are you talking about?
False understanding of your stance on my part. Sorry for that. I thought you’re defending the current day Russian state.
Most of history textbooks barely mention WWII by the same notion. I won’t argue I might know too little about the history of Finland. Although seeing how overwhelmingly current day Finns seem to oppose Russia and often mention the Winter War. It does seem that USSR was the worse of two evils there.
Is it your experience that most people are historically informed as opposed to moved to adopt narratives by dominant forces? Finns have been doing historical revisionism on their alignment with Nazis since the 1940s. You need to have better logic than, “well most Finns say so”.
That’s the point. They had a choise. Either side with the Allies and hence USSR (which fucked them up) or ally with Germany. It was an obvious only choise for them.
The Finnish police state was already fascist-aligned before the Winter War. You are just making things up and pretending it is history. It is possible to actually know things, but you have to be humble and actually read. Your imagination is not a history book.
The point is that tribal “us vs them” is just common. Same goes with countries. It depends if the group has a common identity.
I already addressed this. You can respond to what I said or ignore it entirely but I won’t be entertaining it further if you are going to cherry pick.
False understanding of your stance on my part. Sorry for that. I thought you’re defending the current day Russian state.
The current day Russian state is also not an empire. Again, what on earth are you talking about?
You keep clinging on little details. Russia is an empire due to how many smaller nations were conquered to the east. Just like USA is an Empire etc. Current rebranding doesn’t change the fact.
Fuck ton of countries were fascist just before and during WWII. It’s not a serious argument to make here. Fascism is just getting to power without democratic means.
And for the Finns. I honestly feel sad for you, if you believe there is a conspiracy theory that managed to brainwash an entire nation.
Those “little details” are the core facts in contradiction of your claims.
Russia is an empire due to how many smaller nations were conquered to the east.
The Russian Empire did so. The Soviets and RF did not. Though if we are speaking of conquering nations, the US certainly did so, and remains the same political entity it did during its genocides of indigenous Americans. The transitions to the USSR and the RF were in no way trivial, it was not just some rebranding. Both were cataclysmic.
Fuck ton of countries were fascist just before and during WWII. It’s not a serious argument to make here.
A handful of European countries were fascist around WWII. It is of course a basic fact and remains a deep stain. Please do your best to not normalize Nazi collaboration.
Fascism is just getting to power without democratic means.
That is not what fascism is at all. Not even under erroneous liberal definitions.
And for the Finns. I honestly feel sad for you, if you believe there is a conspiracy theory that managed to brainwash an entire nation.
False historical narratives do not require grand conspiracy theories. Just the very normal and common process of manufacturing consent.
I will dispute your framing, but why does it justify collective punishment and hatred if all people from a country?
At the time of the Winter War, Finland had existed for about 20 years, same as the USSR. Both emerged out of the Russian Empire. The USSR sought land and space for military defense against its Northern flank near St Petersburg, which was vulnerable, as well as, ideally, ports to seal from water invasions. Finland rejected every attempt at land exchanges, which was of course their right, but the USSR also, correctly, predicted that Finland would facilitate the Nazi advance and that this land was necessary to repel their war. Faced with an existential threat, they invaded Finland and took much of the land they needed and the war unfolded there exactly as predicted, with Finland rapidly becoming Nazi collaborators and putting down most of its internal resistance. The Continuation War followed, of course. To this day, they teach false histories about this, via the usual government censorship and creation of school curricula.
Sima Häyhä was hated by many early on and received many personal death threats to his face. His rehabilitation in pop culture is more of a thing from the 70d and 80s. Finland collaborated with Nazis and built death camps and was subsequently liberated by the USSR. With fascist groups disbanded and banned and the USSR elevated to the status of primary protagonist of winning the war against the Nazis, those who had supported the previous fascist-friendly/just plain fascist government became pretty unpopular for some time.
This country attacked me. Should I allow their enemies to reach them through my territory? Sure.
“USSR correctly predicted this!”
The timeline is fuwky wucky in your argument mate
Ah yes, the famed “reluctant” Nazi collaborators that just had to help Nazis and build death camps to get revenge on the Russkies.
I wonder why all of these liberals here keep making excuses for Nazis and Nazi collaborators.
For USSR being the victor in WW2. Why these Finnish “russian death camps” not in most of history textbooks?
Also it’s not unreasonable to hate the aggressor. So even if they were building death camps to get revenge on Russkies. It’s not like tribal collective punishment isn’t engrained in our blood.
Why do you even want to defend an empire?
Most history textbooks barely mention Finland at all. They will often not even tell you they were Axis-aligned. You have to read historians writing specifically about this topic. No lazy bones.
Like I said, this does not excuse allying with Nazis. I am not arguing about whether everyday Finns might have had animosity towards Russia for a few years. I am talking about being the willing Northern front for Nazi Germany, deporting Jews to camps, rounding up tons of civilians and keeping them in starvation conditions.
This was not tribal, it was a nation state and the forces were political. Lapua members were the key Nazi collaborators and they were anticommunist ideologues long before the Winter War.
Please refrain from bullshit human nature arguments to justify Nazi collaboration.
What on earth are you talking about?
Most of history textbooks barely mention WWII by the same notion. I won’t argue I might know too little about the history of Finland. Although seeing how overwhelmingly current day Finns seem to oppose Russia and often mention the Winter War. It does seem that USSR was the worse of two evils there.
That’s the point. They had a choise. Either side with the Allies and hence USSR (which fucked them up) or ally with Germany. It was an obvious only choise for them.
The point is that tribal “us vs them” is just common. Same goes with countries. It depends if the group has a common identity.
False understanding of your stance on my part. Sorry for that. I thought you’re defending the current day Russian state.
Is it your experience that most people are historically informed as opposed to moved to adopt narratives by dominant forces? Finns have been doing historical revisionism on their alignment with Nazis since the 1940s. You need to have better logic than, “well most Finns say so”.
The Finnish police state was already fascist-aligned before the Winter War. You are just making things up and pretending it is history. It is possible to actually know things, but you have to be humble and actually read. Your imagination is not a history book.
I already addressed this. You can respond to what I said or ignore it entirely but I won’t be entertaining it further if you are going to cherry pick.
The current day Russian state is also not an empire. Again, what on earth are you talking about?
You keep clinging on little details. Russia is an empire due to how many smaller nations were conquered to the east. Just like USA is an Empire etc. Current rebranding doesn’t change the fact.
Fuck ton of countries were fascist just before and during WWII. It’s not a serious argument to make here. Fascism is just getting to power without democratic means.
And for the Finns. I honestly feel sad for you, if you believe there is a conspiracy theory that managed to brainwash an entire nation.
Those “little details” are the core facts in contradiction of your claims.
The Russian Empire did so. The Soviets and RF did not. Though if we are speaking of conquering nations, the US certainly did so, and remains the same political entity it did during its genocides of indigenous Americans. The transitions to the USSR and the RF were in no way trivial, it was not just some rebranding. Both were cataclysmic.
A handful of European countries were fascist around WWII. It is of course a basic fact and remains a deep stain. Please do your best to not normalize Nazi collaboration.
That is not what fascism is at all. Not even under erroneous liberal definitions.
False historical narratives do not require grand conspiracy theories. Just the very normal and common process of manufacturing consent.