Who is downvoting this? The US and EU have slaughtered millions in support of Imperialism veiled as “liberation” and “establishing democracy,” even the more liberal sections of Lemmy seem to grasp that. Is it the inclusion of the EU as guilty, and not just the US?
You probably need to count a wee bit better how many perished in both USSR and China in the “internal struggles”. Millions, not that sure there has been enough time for either countries (US and EU) to really slaughter millions directly. If you count proxy wars, then some of the blame would also lie on the other side’s supporter. Which usually would be either USSR or China.
But generally yes, I agree that the current free market driven “democracy” (or as I like to call it corporatocracy) is insanely bad.
You probably need to count a wee bit better yourself. Millions more died in the Tsarist regime and agrarian China under the Nationalist Kuomintang. The US slaughtered countless millions of indigenous Americans, Koreans, Vietnamese, Iraqis, and numerous other small nations, as well as enslaved millions. The UK in particular has slaughtered millions of Indians. To this day, both the US and EU hyper-exploit the Global South and extract vast amounts of rent, resources, and profits off the back of workers in the Global South.
China hasn’t been at war for 40 years and the USSR was disbanded in 1991, meanwhile the US and EU continue their plunder. Even during the time of the USSR, they fought for the liberation of peoples against Empire and Colonialism, hence their support for groups like the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Cuba, Algeria, and so forth.
This is “both sides-ism” that refuses to look at which side was doing what, and for which interests.
Um, hello by definition a monarchy is not democracy so blaming one for rampant corporate imperialism doesn’t really work for your meme.
US expansion into native American lands was definatly greed for sure, but hardly a feature of a democracy, not to mention the British empire was again not democratic. Yes both of those things are absolutely a war crime, but it has nothing to do with your democracy meme. Are you forgetting what you are outraged about? I mean I agree with you by the way, alot of things that have historically happened are basically a war crime but I wonder how you miss Romans and greeks out, given back in those days it was relatively common to plunder, loot, enslave and execute left right and centre. Original democratic empire expansions with built in acceptance and encouragement of slavery please?
Serious question though, where are you getting millions of Iraqis From? Like thousands yes sure I can see it. Official reports are definitely undercounting for sure. But millions? You do realise that after 3 years of actual modern, full out war in Ukraine it has not yet reached a million casualties (that’s dead, wounded and Mia together, not just dead) for either side? And you are trying to say that in a population of under 25million in 2000’s they managed to murder more than 1 in 25 of all Iraqis? What kind of nonsense is that?
Korea and Vietnam, yes i agree imperialistic expansionism but that’s true for both the ussr + china. Countries have long been trying to influence and take over others. It all fucking sucks, yes. But to say it’s all just democratic imperialism? That’s just pure nonsense and complete misunderstanding of just how shit most humans in places of power are. Look at what happened in USSR, it has so little to do with actual communism it’s a fetal position rolling on the floor crying coping mechanism.
By the way, I am saying both sides, yes because both are guilty in the net effect of human suffering. Should one of the sides roll over and surrender? Well no, in my mind neither side should have escalated to an armed conflict in the first place.
Some people have this amazing feature of a working brain, mouth and ears so we can think, talk and listen and resolve our conflicts instead of looking at the neighbours and going “yep that be better to be mine”.
What I am saying here is yes corporate democracy sucks, but saying it’s the only pure root of evil is clearly overreaching.
There’s a lot of gish-gallop here but I’ll respond to a good deal of it.
Um, hello by definition a monarchy is not democracy so blaming one for rampant corporate imperialism doesn’t really work for your meme.
The UK has a parliamentary system and practices liberal democracy. Churchill was directly responsible for millions starving in India.
US expansion into native American lands was definatly greed for sure, but hardly a feature of a democracy
This meme is not anti-democratic. It’s against the usage of “democracy” as a justification for Imperialist intervention and slaughter.
but I wonder how you miss Romans and greeks out
We don’t. This meme is again, targeting the US and EU’s usage of “spreading democracy” as justification for wanton slaughter.
Serious question though, where are you getting millions of Iraqis From?
The consequences of the US thoroughly obliterating nearly all infrastructure in Iraq led to countless deaths. It’s the same process as what’s happening in Palestine right now.
Korea and Vietnam, yes i agree imperialistic expansionism but that’s true for both the ussr + china. Countries have long been trying to influence and take over others. It all fucking sucks, yes. But to say it’s all just democratic imperialism? That’s just pure nonsense and complete misunderstanding of just how shit most humans in places of power are. Look at what happened in USSR, it has so little to do with actual communism it’s a fetal position rolling on the floor crying coping mechanism.
Can you explain how the USSR and PRC are Imperialist? Do/did they export Capital to the Global South to hyper-exploit for super-profits domestically?
Secondly, can you explain how the USSR was not Communist? They had a publicly owned, planned economy, your only justification that this isn’t true is an attack on Marxists.
By the way, I am saying both sides, yes because both are guilty in the net effect of human suffering. Should one of the sides roll over and surrender? Well no, in my mind neither side should have escalated to an armed conflict in the first place.
So the USSR should not have assisted the Cuban revolutionaries overthrowing the fascists, the Palestinian resistance against genocide, the Algerian revolutionaries, and so forth? This is nonsense. Liberatory movements are in no way “equally bad” as Imperialist aggression.
Some people have this amazing feature of a working brain, mouth and ears so we can think, talk and listen and resolve our conflicts instead of looking at the neighbours and going “yep that be better to be mine”.
Let me know when you can talk to a billionaire and convince them to overthrow Capitalism in the US or EU.
What I am saying here is yes corporate democracy sucks, but saying it’s the only pure root of evil is clearly overreaching.
Nobody said that, though. You are pretending that’s the point of the meme for debatelordism, despite that not being the purpose of the meme at all.
If you want to learn more about Marxism, I made an introductory Marxist reading list, which includes history books regarding Marxist states and liberatory movements.
Who is downvoting this? The US and EU have slaughtered millions in support of Imperialism veiled as “liberation” and “establishing democracy,” even the more liberal sections of Lemmy seem to grasp that. Is it the inclusion of the EU as guilty, and not just the US?
You probably need to count a wee bit better how many perished in both USSR and China in the “internal struggles”. Millions, not that sure there has been enough time for either countries (US and EU) to really slaughter millions directly. If you count proxy wars, then some of the blame would also lie on the other side’s supporter. Which usually would be either USSR or China.
But generally yes, I agree that the current free market driven “democracy” (or as I like to call it corporatocracy) is insanely bad.
You probably need to count a wee bit better yourself. Millions more died in the Tsarist regime and agrarian China under the Nationalist Kuomintang. The US slaughtered countless millions of indigenous Americans, Koreans, Vietnamese, Iraqis, and numerous other small nations, as well as enslaved millions. The UK in particular has slaughtered millions of Indians. To this day, both the US and EU hyper-exploit the Global South and extract vast amounts of rent, resources, and profits off the back of workers in the Global South.
China hasn’t been at war for 40 years and the USSR was disbanded in 1991, meanwhile the US and EU continue their plunder. Even during the time of the USSR, they fought for the liberation of peoples against Empire and Colonialism, hence their support for groups like the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Cuba, Algeria, and so forth.
This is “both sides-ism” that refuses to look at which side was doing what, and for which interests.
I suggest you read Blackshirts and Reds.
Um, hello by definition a monarchy is not democracy so blaming one for rampant corporate imperialism doesn’t really work for your meme.
US expansion into native American lands was definatly greed for sure, but hardly a feature of a democracy, not to mention the British empire was again not democratic. Yes both of those things are absolutely a war crime, but it has nothing to do with your democracy meme. Are you forgetting what you are outraged about? I mean I agree with you by the way, alot of things that have historically happened are basically a war crime but I wonder how you miss Romans and greeks out, given back in those days it was relatively common to plunder, loot, enslave and execute left right and centre. Original democratic empire expansions with built in acceptance and encouragement of slavery please?
Serious question though, where are you getting millions of Iraqis From? Like thousands yes sure I can see it. Official reports are definitely undercounting for sure. But millions? You do realise that after 3 years of actual modern, full out war in Ukraine it has not yet reached a million casualties (that’s dead, wounded and Mia together, not just dead) for either side? And you are trying to say that in a population of under 25million in 2000’s they managed to murder more than 1 in 25 of all Iraqis? What kind of nonsense is that?
Korea and Vietnam, yes i agree imperialistic expansionism but that’s true for both the ussr + china. Countries have long been trying to influence and take over others. It all fucking sucks, yes. But to say it’s all just democratic imperialism? That’s just pure nonsense and complete misunderstanding of just how shit most humans in places of power are. Look at what happened in USSR, it has so little to do with actual communism it’s a fetal position rolling on the floor crying coping mechanism.
By the way, I am saying both sides, yes because both are guilty in the net effect of human suffering. Should one of the sides roll over and surrender? Well no, in my mind neither side should have escalated to an armed conflict in the first place.
Some people have this amazing feature of a working brain, mouth and ears so we can think, talk and listen and resolve our conflicts instead of looking at the neighbours and going “yep that be better to be mine”.
What I am saying here is yes corporate democracy sucks, but saying it’s the only pure root of evil is clearly overreaching.
There’s a lot of gish-gallop here but I’ll respond to a good deal of it.
The UK has a parliamentary system and practices liberal democracy. Churchill was directly responsible for millions starving in India.
This meme is not anti-democratic. It’s against the usage of “democracy” as a justification for Imperialist intervention and slaughter.
We don’t. This meme is again, targeting the US and EU’s usage of “spreading democracy” as justification for wanton slaughter.
The consequences of the US thoroughly obliterating nearly all infrastructure in Iraq led to countless deaths. It’s the same process as what’s happening in Palestine right now.
Can you explain how the USSR and PRC are Imperialist? Do/did they export Capital to the Global South to hyper-exploit for super-profits domestically?
Secondly, can you explain how the USSR was not Communist? They had a publicly owned, planned economy, your only justification that this isn’t true is an attack on Marxists.
So the USSR should not have assisted the Cuban revolutionaries overthrowing the fascists, the Palestinian resistance against genocide, the Algerian revolutionaries, and so forth? This is nonsense. Liberatory movements are in no way “equally bad” as Imperialist aggression.
Let me know when you can talk to a billionaire and convince them to overthrow Capitalism in the US or EU.
Nobody said that, though. You are pretending that’s the point of the meme for debatelordism, despite that not being the purpose of the meme at all.
If you want to learn more about Marxism, I made an introductory Marxist reading list, which includes history books regarding Marxist states and liberatory movements.