If there’s hidden segregation in education, as it was with Jews in USSR, then universities doing less of it will become better over time.
(I mean - this effect has sort of receded by now, but in today’s Russia all education kinda slowly rots. There are exceptions, which are mostly connected to specific passionate people.)
And affirmative action is hard to do right, and from what I’ve heard, it’s not done right in the USA.
The right way is similar to support groups and employment help groups.
Having a list of protected groups is wrong for two reasons - it doesn’t protect at all those who haven’t made it into that list, first, and making a group protected also cements its definition, makes an arbitrary border for it, second.
So - applying force, as in such laws, may feel intuitively more powerful, but it’s not.
Also laws meant to protect may actually in obscure ways cement a certain group’s disadvantaged position. The best policy is no special cases and minimization of blocking and gatekeeping, so that if for members of some group things don’t work somewhere, there’s enough alternatives so that they’d find a way. That is harder, but known to work. Unlike preferential treatment.
There is a comment with percentage of Asian students here too, where they are represented more than in population. Is there no racism against Asians? Is there any affirmative action in their favor?
Your theory is sound except for the glaring ommision of the existence of racism. That’s why “”“preferential”“” <–(needs more quotes) exists, because in America, systemic racism absolutely does
If there’s hidden segregation in education (…) then universities doing less of it will become better over time.
They are totally ignoring the fact that systemic racism is self reinforcing.
E.g. if one group of parents have enough cash on hand to enroll their children in tutoring when they need it, and impressive extra curricular activities when tutoring is unnecessary, then the children of those parents will have stronger university applications than the children that have to work part time jobs. This perpetuates racially inequality.
It’s not difficult to understand. It doesn’t even require racial prejudice.
That would be socioeconomic class more than race, and I completely agree. In fact, race doesn’t have anything to do with it, other than the historical facts of America meaning there’s a racial skew to poverty. Targeting poverty ("wealth privilege) would therefore disproportionately benefit African-Americans, without needlessly excluding the poor from other demographics and continuing to perpetuate the idea that skin colour is somehow the most important thing about people.
In a system where inherent racism didn’t exist that would work, are you assuming that the current system wouldn’t disproportionately skew the beneficiaries to the existing racial bias for some reason ?
That just gives you the same problem, a step down in the chain.
Systemic racism doesn’t start once you hit a threshold of income, targeting the poor will still skew towards whatever biases exist in the system.
disproportionately benefit African-Americans
Either you don’t understand why African-Americans would need additional help or you are framing it that way on purpose.
By what metric are you getting “disproportionate” ?
continuing to perpetuate the idea that skin colour is somehow the most important thing about people
It sounds like systemic racism is over so we can all just go back to seeing everyone as equals. /s
Again, either you have a fundamental misunderstanding or are purposely framing it that way.
To be clear, these measures aren’t “skin color is most important so let’s base policy on that aspect”
they are closer to
“The system is actively using skin colour and ethnicity to detrimentally target people who should really be equal in standing, let’s not pretend that that isn’t happening and try to address it”
E.g. if one group of parents have enough cash on hand to enroll their children in tutoring when they need it, and impressive extra curricular activities when tutoring is unnecessary, then the children of those parents will have stronger university applications than the children that have to work part time jobs. This perpetuates racially inequality
(Repeated cuz it’s good, and i believe in helping people with special requirements)
Gosh, you’re pretty arrogant huh? Ignorant peeps usually are.
Is “systemic” racism, where the parents have less money because racism is systemic too high a bar for your iq to clear?
No, no, don’t give up on me just yet! I need to know how you started off acknowledging racism and then forgetting it by the end of your comment! Please advise my clearly ignorant take
If there’s hidden segregation in education, as it was with Jews in USSR, then universities doing less of it will become better over time.
(I mean - this effect has sort of receded by now, but in today’s Russia all education kinda slowly rots. There are exceptions, which are mostly connected to specific passionate people.)
And affirmative action is hard to do right, and from what I’ve heard, it’s not done right in the USA.
The right way is similar to support groups and employment help groups.
Having a list of protected groups is wrong for two reasons - it doesn’t protect at all those who haven’t made it into that list, first, and making a group protected also cements its definition, makes an arbitrary border for it, second.
So - applying force, as in such laws, may feel intuitively more powerful, but it’s not.
Also laws meant to protect may actually in obscure ways cement a certain group’s disadvantaged position. The best policy is no special cases and minimization of blocking and gatekeeping, so that if for members of some group things don’t work somewhere, there’s enough alternatives so that they’d find a way. That is harder, but known to work. Unlike preferential treatment.
There is a comment with percentage of Asian students here too, where they are represented more than in population. Is there no racism against Asians? Is there any affirmative action in their favor?
Your theory is sound except for the glaring ommision of the existence of racism. That’s why “”“preferential”“” <–(needs more quotes) exists, because in America, systemic racism absolutely does
Yeah I agree with you.
When they said:
They are totally ignoring the fact that systemic racism is self reinforcing.
E.g. if one group of parents have enough cash on hand to enroll their children in tutoring when they need it, and impressive extra curricular activities when tutoring is unnecessary, then the children of those parents will have stronger university applications than the children that have to work part time jobs. This perpetuates racially inequality.
It’s not difficult to understand. It doesn’t even require racial prejudice.
That would be socioeconomic class more than race, and I completely agree. In fact, race doesn’t have anything to do with it, other than the historical facts of America meaning there’s a racial skew to poverty. Targeting poverty ("wealth privilege) would therefore disproportionately benefit African-Americans, without needlessly excluding the poor from other demographics and continuing to perpetuate the idea that skin colour is somehow the most important thing about people.
In a system where inherent racism didn’t exist that would work, are you assuming that the current system wouldn’t disproportionately skew the beneficiaries to the existing racial bias for some reason ?
That just gives you the same problem, a step down in the chain.
Systemic racism doesn’t start once you hit a threshold of income, targeting the poor will still skew towards whatever biases exist in the system.
Either you don’t understand why African-Americans would need additional help or you are framing it that way on purpose.
By what metric are you getting “disproportionate” ?
It sounds like systemic racism is over so we can all just go back to seeing everyone as equals. /s
Again, either you have a fundamental misunderstanding or are purposely framing it that way.
To be clear, these measures aren’t “skin color is most important so let’s base policy on that aspect”
they are closer to
“The system is actively using skin colour and ethnicity to detrimentally target people who should really be equal in standing, let’s not pretend that that isn’t happening and try to address it”
(Er whoops)
deleted by creator
It’s not difficult to understand, except it’s wrong in experience.
(Repeated cuz it’s good, and i believe in helping people with special requirements)
Gosh, you’re pretty arrogant huh? Ignorant peeps usually are.
Is “systemic” racism, where the parents have less money because racism is systemic too high a bar for your iq to clear?
Sheesh.
My comment literally starts with comparison to Jews in USSR. If that’s glaring omission, I think some systemic education issues have already got you.
No, no, don’t give up on me just yet! I need to know how you started off acknowledging racism and then forgetting it by the end of your comment! Please advise my clearly ignorant take