• @JubilantJaguar
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    117 hours ago

    This leans heavily on two very modern, and US-centric, ideas:

    • to insult a group is the worst possible form of speech infringement
    • that non-physical abuse can constitute “cruelty” (you didn’t use the word “harm” but it’s right there)

    Personally I dispute these premises. I think it would be better if we stuck to something close to free-speech absolutism: easier to police; no perverse incentives to victimhood; resilience is an underrated virtue, etc.

    Technically I belong to one of your “marginalized groups” but I don’t see myself as a victim. My answer to insults is usually to roll my eyes rather than to break down in tears and call for Daddy to step in.

    Anyway, I think this is really about the cultural zeitgeist. My ideas are going out of fashion and yours are coming into fashion. Better hope this experiment goes well.

    • @[email protected]
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      8 hours ago

      Taboos aren’t new, they’ve just shifted. Before they were based more on Christian morality but nowadays it’s mostly from a secular multicultural morality.

      If someone repeatedly called you a slur you may not break down and cry, though I don’t judge those who do, but wouldn’t you at least stop talking to them? Wouldn’t you tell other people to also stop associating with them? I know I would and that is the social ostracization that I think should be a punishment for offensive behavior.

      I don’t see how you can make the case that verbal abuse doesn’t harm people without completely ignoring psychology and mental health. If someone becomes depressed due to harassment are they not harmed? What if they commit suicide, is it purely their fault since they couldn’t toughen up and the bully is absolved as some fucked up form of natural selection?

      Even ignoring mental health words can damage your respect which is a valuable resource that is being unjustly taken. If your bosses right hand man keeps making misogynist jokes and using slurs against you and then you get passed over for a promotion because your boss doesn’t take you seriously then those words cost you monetarily. Your level of respect can open or close many doors in your life and having someone degrade that which you may have worked very hard for is harmful.

      • @JubilantJaguar
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        24 hours ago

        The discrimination question is a valid concern. My general approach there is to have strong legislation that puts the onus on companies etc to prove non-discrimination, and leave it there. Trying to legislate outcomes is counter-productive, there are other ideals that are more fundamental than group non-discrimination. We are human beings before we are members of this or that group. Alas Americans, especially younger ones, tend not to see things this way any more!

        But for this question of “emotional harm” (which is clearly what you’re talking about), I think it’s more complex than it looks. That somebody might be “hurt” by some non-physical “violence” is a subjective reality that we created collectively. It can therefore be uncreated collectively, if we so desire. I think that would be the better path to take.