I had given DS1 a try on PC back when I saw the game played by PewDiePie (jesus this was ages ago) and didn’t really get the game at all; keyboard controls prior to PTD edition probably didn’t help either lol
My first real venture into soulslikes was Bloodborne and it went horribly to say the least. I killed the Cleric Beast and Gascoigne the first evening I tried the game and put down the game afterwards but it was just too much for me. I was scared, didn’t know what I was doing, and it was just waay to hard for me.
Took me a couple of years to get back to it and give it another shot. One of my all-time favourite games today.
How about you guys?
I tried
PD1DS1 and really didn’t like it. I hate being made to play the same content over and over so the typical soulslike loop of “die and repeat until you’ve learned how to deal with this one specific challenge” really doesn’t resonate with me. The “drop all of your souls upon death” mechanic also didn’t help. All in all I made it maybe 10% through the game at most and I’m not going to touch it again.Later I tried Remnant 1 and found it to be vastly more enjoyable. The focus on ranged combat and much more robust player character vastly improved playability. The fact that coop is possible without having to allow people to randomly pop in and engage you in PVP also helped greatly. I also found the setting and art style more interesting but that’s fairly minor. I finished it with all DLCs although there are still a few events I haven’t seen yet.
I haven’t ever thought about all of the FromSoft titles not really allowing for good ranged builds. It kinda does go against their design philosophy, I feel like, and they do have magic and ranged combat in some ways, but both are not as fleshed out as melee combat and its plethora of weapons is. Would a good ranged weapon whose moveset you enjoy help you finish a traditional soulslike?
It’s definitely matter of philosophy. The traditional soulslike approach is to impose a high skill floor and be unforgiving about certain mechanics, especially dodging. The player character is fragile and the player is expected to learn each enemy and situation so they know precisely how and when to attack, dodge, etc. This leads to players being fully expected to die over and over to the same situations until the proper approach has been learned.
It’s a difficult, deliberate gameplay approach that rewards those who like to apply themselves to a situation until they’ve mastered it. This focus on repetition to achieve mastery is intentional and the enjoyers of classic soulslikes tend to want a game where completion is the kind of challenge you can brag about meeting.
This doesn’t work for me. I have limited patience for being made to repeat sections too often; traditional soulslikes overstress it in the same way frustration platformers do. While I can deal with frequent loss and repetition in something like a roguelike (or roguelite), those have the benefit of short cycle times and self-contained runs. Meanwhile I get the feeling that Dark Souls just wastes my time if I spend five minutes making my way back to where I died, repeatedly.
Remnant deals with this by lowering the skill floor to be on par with most shooters. The emphasis on ranged combat and more capable player character mean that most encounters can be handled with a modest amount of learning; mistakes are far less deadly and death has a lower penalty. You learn your weapons and skills rather than the enemies’ patterns. Even most bosses can be done without precisely learning their patterns. (That excludes you, Barbed Terror.) This makes the game a lot more pleasant for someone who doesn’t appreciate FromSoft’s strict approach.
In essence, it’s like comparing classic Castlevania to Symphony of the Night: SoTN made the series more approachable by introducing stat growth, allowing players to overpower enemies with numbers if their skill wouldn’t suffice. Traditional Castlevanias and Igavanias ultimately are different subgenres that cater to different audiences. Both are perfectly valid. And it’s the same with FromSoft’s games and Remnant.
And that’s why I don’t think that a good ranged weapon would help – the game would have to be designed to accommodate it and if it was to retain its character as a classical soulslike, ranged combat would still have to be deliberate, lethal, and built around precise timing. I wouldn’t want to turn Dark Souls into Remnant; it’s fine the way it it, it’s just not for me.
(Oh, and one note: When I wrote “PD1” in my original post, I meant Dark Souls 1 but mistyped. I’m gonna go and correct that.)
Thanks for you excellent and very detailed breakdown - I enjoyed reading it a lot.
Yea, I feel what you’re saying. I feel like many FromSoft fans have this very strict idea of what a soulslike and its difficulty entail. The punishing difficulty is a driving factor for many, of course, but it’s also a divise one at that, something that’s actively keeping people from playing and enjoying these games.
I think we’re overdue some sort of difficulty settings. It’s the same argument over again with people who are very adamant about those games not needing to cater to “casuals” and rather sticking to the roots of the genre, but it’s just gatekeeping in my opinion. Having difficulty settings does not diminish your accomplishments in a game - all it does is make the game more accessible to other players. Who am I to dictate how someone should be playing with a game they’ve spent money on to enjoy? Of course, artistic intent and whatnot is something to keep in mind, but especially FromSoft is a studio that should be capable of cooking something up that does not impede their vision or other players’ enjoyment.
Now, Elden Ring definitely took a step in the right direction with its lack of strict linearity and plethora of different builds. However, a (semi-)ranged weapon with the depth of something like Simon’s Bowblade from Bloodborne, which is part sword part bow, is dearly missing from souls titles. If the ranged options weren’t just regular bows, crossbows, staves and stuff that are very crude and one-dimensional, more people would try ranged tactics instead of smashing their heads against a wall to no avail. It helps broaden the players’ horizons and gives more options to people that crave them.
A fair point. Difficulty settings can be done in a way that doesn’t detract from the experience and even the challenge.
System Shock 1 had a multidimensional difficulty system and something like that could work for a soulslike as well. You could make timings looser, give the player more health relative to enemies, reduce or even remove the death penalty, disable invasions, or turn off some of the harder boss attacks.
Of course the game will display how you set it at the end so only those who set everything to maximum get to really brag about it. They can even claim that people who play on easy (= not everything maxed) didn’t really finish the game. Meanwhile the rest of us get to experience the game at a manageable difficulty. Even those who turned it into a glorified walking simulator.
Perhaps we can gate a stupidly difficult secret boss behind the hardest settings for those who think that bragging about your settings is too abstract. They get to battle Kahooma, Maelstrom of Neverending Torment, and her single-frame windows of opportunity. It’ll probably take about two months until someone beats her with a Guitar Hero controller.
More variety in play styles could also help, although they do make balancing a lot harder. You don’t want to ship your will-shatteringly hard soulslike only to find out a week later that most bosses can be trivialized by creatively using the Beartrap Bow to interrupt their attack animations. (I seem to remember that Dark Souls 2 actually did ship with massively overpowered lightning magic or something.) So some care needs to be taken.
In the end I’m just happy that there are some soulslikes that are approachable for players like me. There’s definitely something to the genre, even if a fair amount of that something puts most soulslikes out of reach of many players.