Old title - Tolerance - Is violence ever justified?
For reference - https://lemmings.world/post/19791264 and all comments below the post about tolerance and non-tolerance
is it too naive for me to believe any and every lives matter? I do understand if someone is coming for my life, and i stop him by retaliating back, most nation’s laws would deem me innocent, maybe even most people will - but was it right?
It has not happened with me yet, and this is post is not politics related, a general discussion about tolerance, but I dont know how will I respond to such a situation, Is there a correct approach?
I know in a imaginary utopia - we can have a society where everyone thinks any violence, or for that matter, any evil deed is evil. And I know real world is far from being a utopia, but i believe most people can differentiate between good and bad. In my opinion, most people who do such acts are not really doing it because they enjoy it, some do because they have to, some think they have to, and they have been brain washed.
I also think if we ask a binary (yes/no) question to everyone - Is violence justified" - most people will vote no. I know there would be some exceptions (even in perfect utopia’s like N. Korea, lords only get like 99% majority)(/s).
Now if we change question - “Is violence ever justified” - many will now vote yes, and start listing out situations where they think it is valid.
This question was also brought up in Avatar. For people who don’t know - should Aang (a person with firm opinions, and more importantly a child - 12(112) years old) kill Lord Ozai (for now, consider him embodiment of evil for simplicity, but still a human). Many shows get away from asking, by basically having monsters (non human) as the opponent, so it is does not feel morally wrong. But here the question was asked. His past lives (in this world reincarnation exists, and aang is the Avatar - person who can control all elements) also suggested he should kill him, and he is tethered to this world, and this is no utopia … In the show they got away with basically a divine intervention.
Maybe here is my real question - Is it correct to have your morals be flexible?
Now for my answer, I have almost never felt correct labeling people good or bad, I have almost always treated people depending on what the situation expects me to (maybe how I feel I should be treating). In some sense I have a very flexible stance, and in some others, I dont. For example - I never cheat on exams or assignments - I can’t justify cheating, If I am getting poor marks, then I should prepare well. But If someone else asks me to help them cheat (lets say give assignment solutions) - I dont refuse either, as I have understood, even though judging people by a few numbers is bad, world still does that - mostly to simplify things, and in that sense, a higher grade for anyone is better for them.
I dont even know what can be a answer. I dont know if it exists, or it can exist, I am not really trying to find it either, consider this just a rant at clouds.
edit - I am not asking a binary question - you are not expected to answer a yes or no, see the line just above this edit. It is not even really about violence - it is about morality
edit 2 - Changed title, old 1 is still here for full context. I dont know why I chose that title. I am not blaming anyone who answered on the basis of title, It was my bad to have some title, and ask a “not really orthogonal but generalised question” in the middle, hoping people answer that, some one did, I thank them. Many people have written (or in similar vein) - violence should be be avoided, but not when it the last thing. I understand this general sentiment - but according to me - having a excuse to ever do violence allows you to have loop hole, just blame the circumstances.
Someone gave a situation where they would do violence - someone trying to assault a kid - and I agree I would too (If I would be in such a situation).
I had a small back and forth with someone about morals - my stance is morals are frameworks to choose if a action is moral/immoral. And then the question is really how rigid should your moral framework be, and should it depend on background of people in consideration?
I’m still partial to the general philosophy of Dr Who. Killing is to be avoided even at extreme cost. But when survival is put on the line, it’s time to put a bullet in someone, or blow up their entire species. When you reach that point, go as far as you have to, in order to make sure you don’t have to again.
sorry, i have not seen it, but that basically seems like giving up on the whole species, based on very little sampling. To which I would ask, who gave us that power, and if we have that power, should we keep that power?
Power is never given, it is taken. Might makes right is the only law of the universe. Who gave a cheetah the power to eat a gazelle? Who gave a fungus the power to kill bacteria? The question of tolerance or intolerance is a question of when to use, or not, the individual or collective power of a person or group.
As to when is it right to extinct a species, would you save the dinosaurs from the asteroid? Bear in mind, you extinct your own species if you do. And who gave those dinos the right to use up a whole planet’s worth of resources, that mammals are obviously better suited to make use of. Extincting a species is making ecological room for other species to evolve. It’s just that right now, humans are demonstrably horrible at choosing which species should be around, or not.
Also I highly recommend Dr. Who for the hidden morals wrapped in often ridiculously stupid sci-fi fun.
When we get to fungus killing bacteria - we are discussing ethics of food chain, which is absurd. It is not about survival. If we go by your reasoning (which if i read correctly is definitely a bit sarcastic, so not taking at face value), is survival the only aim? if so, why even bother doing most things?
I am always sarcastic, it’s just my nature. That said, where you are on the food chain is the basis of all power to affect the world/universe. That’s who ‘gave’ us the power to decide if another species should go extinct. We took it, as all power is gained. There was no giving involved. Once that power is gained, giving it up, is giving up your position on the food chain. In a very literal sense. Otherwise you’re not giving up the power to kill another species, you’re just choosing not to. Which in most cases is the best choice, and also is what gives you the choice of tolerance.
As for motivation to interact with the world, that’s personal. In the long run we’re all space dust decaying to barely perceptible heat. In the short run, finding your own contentment might require some adjustments to the world around you. Even just enjoying the day may come at the cost of tomorrow, so choose your actions well.
Also from the evolutionary biology perspective - top of food chain is the worst place to affect anything. These top pedators depend on all the bottom clogs to spin well, and if they dont, almost always top of food chain suffers. Dinos were wiped because they were just too big to handle suffocation, there prey (for carnivore dinos) were either dead or in burrows which they could not access. One of the only good top of food chain members are sharks - because they are just built good and still have large varied diets, and it is not like all shark species have survived.