No I’m saying that material reality affects peoples views more than your version where people are dumb babies; and acknowledging that, let alone standing next to us in struggle could have carried Democrats to victory, instead they abandoned even the semblance of ethics and morals other than “Cheeto bad.” Some people, and you may struggle with this because of an apparent lack of empathy or theory of mind, although maybe not, are not able to cash in their ethics and morals for a pat on the back and literally nothing else, from the same people who are resolved to continue the genocide. Maybe you can, but others have more character and compunction.
Hopefully someday you have experiences that stimulate growth as a person.
And like I’m not particularly partial to taking this view of you as some kind of vampire bereft of all reason and conscience. But when you do it to others, don’t get grumpy when someone calls you out on it. If you don’t like the way it feels, and if you think its possible that you might take a contrary position to me because of our roles on either side of this discourse, then think about how when you do it, it affects others.
Fuck me for thinking you should be better than that!
My question is answered by your question: did you and the democrats stand with the Palestinians or did you stand with Israel?
The organization you are defending with your bad faith questioning is one where it is impossible to stand with ones own principles against genocide. Democrats could not convincingly demonstrate that they would stand by Palestinians and end this genocide, even after the UN and an avalanche of international bodies, legally and scientifically proved that it was indeed a genocide that was occurring. Even then, there was just an uncomfortable shifting of feet as democrats who had been receiving campaign contributions on the order of millions of dollars over decades, were forced to either stand against that money or genocide.
They chose money, and the people who stood against the fascist oppression of the Palestinians, chose to stay home.
Because you know what didn’t work? Standing with Israel when the time came to support Palestine, and then expecting people to be guilt tripped into turning out to vote for Democrats. To be clear, i never once advocated for staying home on election day, but at least I was able to surmise it by looking at the situation.
You act like I’m putting on an air of intellectual superiority, but my standards for consciousness of the situation are actually quite low. I would ask that someone would learn about and think about the situation leading up to a particular event, which you seem to want to ignore; and I ask that you have a measure of empathy. Your inability to demonstrate either should not be read as my judgement of you, but your own guilty judgement of your own fucked up reasoning that you want to put on to me. Save it for your therapist.
Did defending Israel and attacking peaceful protestors win the election? Also no.
Did protestors fighting for peace stand with Israel in carrying out a genocide? No.
Were those protestors wrong when they said democrats would lose if they didn’t stop the genocide? No.
Were those protestors the establishment of the Democrats? No
Did establishment democrats stand with Palestinians against genocide? No.
Did they stand with the side committing genocide? YES
Did they lose? Yes.
Idk what kind of own you think this is. Its not like the dems lost by opposing genocide, actually they lost enabling it. If only someone had warned them
Sooo… you’re admitting that your protest was a complete failure and that none of you get to say “we told to this would happen!” anymore, as the election was not a result of your lack of action or help… even though some 90 million people didn’t vote.
Even though it’s safe to say, as a result of that failure- a portion of those 90 million people that didn’t vote as a result of your grassroots protest campaign- a portion large enough that might have made the difference had they voted-
Effectively helped trump win…
Congratulations. Instead of the small and ineffective group helping the larger group win- which would have been a lot more efficient and productive, you all instead opted for the seemingly impossible and destined-to-fail task of demanding the larger group fall in line behind the small and ineffective group.
Lastly- My purpose in this discussion was not to change your mind as that is clearly evident in the fact that If trump wasn’t enough for people like to be encouraged to do the right thing- nothing is. But there’s hope that there might be someone that’ll come across this and learn from it so that if and or when we see ourselves in a similar situation- they don’t listen to people like you.
No, what they are saying is the Dem’s consistent refusal to listen to their voters, and instead thinking that voters “owe” their votes to the dems, is what got Trump elected.
How on earth does refusing to listen to voters equal losing an election without also admitting that you are responsible for the outcome of an election if this was your reason to protest vote/stay home?
You either had an effect on the election that caused trump to win via your act of protest, or you didn’t/ and therefore don’t get to say “we told you this would happen.”
If you didn’t vote in protest; or voted third party to send a message to the democrats, then you get to take the blame for trump. That is how a logical conclusion is made.
If you chose not to eat chicken because you don’t like it, and your only other option is to eat pasta, and you don’t like that either-
It is YOUR fault you are hungry, not all the other people eating their dinners.
Seriously…. Even children should be able make this distinction. But I guess that’s what happens when arrogance meets shame-
How on earth does refusing to listen to voters equal losing an election without also admitting that you are responsible for the outcome of an election if this was your reason to protest vote/stay home?
Because I don’t blame individual voters, for the decisions of the candidate running?
You either had an effect on the election that caused trump to win via your act of protest, or you didn’t/ and therefore don’t get to say “we told you this would happen.”
So, no fault goes to the candidates? At all?
It is YOUR fault you are hungry, not all the other people eating their dinners.
Isn’t it the fault of the person who only provided the food, and only giving the choice between shit sandwich and diarrhea soup?
If voters protest voting had an effect, doesn’t that mean the blame lies with the candidate who wholly ignored the voters? Because they ignored the voters during the election, its fair to say they would be ignored after the election.
Seriously…. Even children should be able make this distinction. But I guess that’s what happens when arrogance meets shame-
Yes, even a child should be able to make the distinction of genocide being evil, regardless of the purported justification.
And, here’s a spoiler: I voted for Harris! Yes, it was a very selfish decision on my part, because I have direct interactions daily with, well, most of all the groups that were being impacted under Biden, and now under Trump. At best, I was hoping for 4 more years of radicalizing people.
But guess what? I still am working to radicalize people.
No one said the candidate or the party takes no blame. That’s foolish to even think to assume.
But 90 million people didn’t vote. It’s safe to say that several million of those were single issue protesters. And then the over 3 million third party voters?
So… you’re actually saying that your protest successfully got trump elected- in defense of someone accusing you of helping to get trump elected….
No I’m saying that material reality affects peoples views more than your version where people are dumb babies; and acknowledging that, let alone standing next to us in struggle could have carried Democrats to victory, instead they abandoned even the semblance of ethics and morals other than “Cheeto bad.” Some people, and you may struggle with this because of an apparent lack of empathy or theory of mind, although maybe not, are not able to cash in their ethics and morals for a pat on the back and literally nothing else, from the same people who are resolved to continue the genocide. Maybe you can, but others have more character and compunction.
Hopefully someday you have experiences that stimulate growth as a person.
And like I’m not particularly partial to taking this view of you as some kind of vampire bereft of all reason and conscience. But when you do it to others, don’t get grumpy when someone calls you out on it. If you don’t like the way it feels, and if you think its possible that you might take a contrary position to me because of our roles on either side of this discourse, then think about how when you do it, it affects others.
Fuck me for thinking you should be better than that!
So… I’m having difficulty understanding because of your obvious intellectual superiority, but…
I’m going to need a simple answer here:
Did your protest work, or not?
Because if it did, then it would seem to me- in my humble ignorance, that you enabled a trump victory.
But if it didn’t, then it would seem to be, also in my humble ignorance, that you enabled a trump victory.
Be sure to use small words so that my brain can understand.
My question is answered by your question: did you and the democrats stand with the Palestinians or did you stand with Israel?
The organization you are defending with your bad faith questioning is one where it is impossible to stand with ones own principles against genocide. Democrats could not convincingly demonstrate that they would stand by Palestinians and end this genocide, even after the UN and an avalanche of international bodies, legally and scientifically proved that it was indeed a genocide that was occurring. Even then, there was just an uncomfortable shifting of feet as democrats who had been receiving campaign contributions on the order of millions of dollars over decades, were forced to either stand against that money or genocide.
They chose money, and the people who stood against the fascist oppression of the Palestinians, chose to stay home.
Because you know what didn’t work? Standing with Israel when the time came to support Palestine, and then expecting people to be guilt tripped into turning out to vote for Democrats. To be clear, i never once advocated for staying home on election day, but at least I was able to surmise it by looking at the situation.
You act like I’m putting on an air of intellectual superiority, but my standards for consciousness of the situation are actually quite low. I would ask that someone would learn about and think about the situation leading up to a particular event, which you seem to want to ignore; and I ask that you have a measure of empathy. Your inability to demonstrate either should not be read as my judgement of you, but your own guilty judgement of your own fucked up reasoning that you want to put on to me. Save it for your therapist.
As expected, walls of text without answering a simple yes or no question.
Did you answer any of my questions? No, as expected. What incredible hypocrisy
I’ve argued with hundreds of versions of you. I know this game. I’m not answering shit to until you answer what was asked of you first.
Did non-voting in protest/third party protest votes affect the election, yes- or no?
Okay let’s lay it out.
Did protesting genocide win the election? No
Did defending Israel and attacking peaceful protestors win the election? Also no.
Did protestors fighting for peace stand with Israel in carrying out a genocide? No.
Were those protestors wrong when they said democrats would lose if they didn’t stop the genocide? No.
Were those protestors the establishment of the Democrats? No
Did establishment democrats stand with Palestinians against genocide? No.
Did they stand with the side committing genocide? YES
Did they lose? Yes.
Idk what kind of own you think this is. Its not like the dems lost by opposing genocide, actually they lost enabling it. If only someone had warned them
deleted by creator
Sooo… you’re admitting that your protest was a complete failure and that none of you get to say “we told to this would happen!” anymore, as the election was not a result of your lack of action or help… even though some 90 million people didn’t vote.
Even though it’s safe to say, as a result of that failure- a portion of those 90 million people that didn’t vote as a result of your grassroots protest campaign- a portion large enough that might have made the difference had they voted-
Effectively helped trump win…
Congratulations. Instead of the small and ineffective group helping the larger group win- which would have been a lot more efficient and productive, you all instead opted for the seemingly impossible and destined-to-fail task of demanding the larger group fall in line behind the small and ineffective group.
Lastly- My purpose in this discussion was not to change your mind as that is clearly evident in the fact that If trump wasn’t enough for people like to be encouraged to do the right thing- nothing is. But there’s hope that there might be someone that’ll come across this and learn from it so that if and or when we see ourselves in a similar situation- they don’t listen to people like you.
No, what they are saying is the Dem’s consistent refusal to listen to their voters, and instead thinking that voters “owe” their votes to the dems, is what got Trump elected.
How on earth does refusing to listen to voters equal losing an election without also admitting that you are responsible for the outcome of an election if this was your reason to protest vote/stay home?
You either had an effect on the election that caused trump to win via your act of protest, or you didn’t/ and therefore don’t get to say “we told you this would happen.”
If you didn’t vote in protest; or voted third party to send a message to the democrats, then you get to take the blame for trump. That is how a logical conclusion is made.
If you chose not to eat chicken because you don’t like it, and your only other option is to eat pasta, and you don’t like that either-
It is YOUR fault you are hungry, not all the other people eating their dinners.
Seriously…. Even children should be able make this distinction. But I guess that’s what happens when arrogance meets shame-
You get stubborn ignorance.
Because I don’t blame individual voters, for the decisions of the candidate running?
So, no fault goes to the candidates? At all?
Isn’t it the fault of the person who only provided the food, and only giving the choice between shit sandwich and diarrhea soup?
If voters protest voting had an effect, doesn’t that mean the blame lies with the candidate who wholly ignored the voters? Because they ignored the voters during the election, its fair to say they would be ignored after the election.
Yes, even a child should be able to make the distinction of genocide being evil, regardless of the purported justification.
And, here’s a spoiler: I voted for Harris! Yes, it was a very selfish decision on my part, because I have direct interactions daily with, well, most of all the groups that were being impacted under Biden, and now under Trump. At best, I was hoping for 4 more years of radicalizing people.
But guess what? I still am working to radicalize people.
No one said the candidate or the party takes no blame. That’s foolish to even think to assume.
But 90 million people didn’t vote. It’s safe to say that several million of those were single issue protesters. And then the over 3 million third party voters?
Yeah…
It’s your fault you’re hungry.