Here is the official statistics of hate crimes in sweden. Antisemitic 4% of total and islamophobic is 8%. However there are around 800000 with a muslim background although only around 230000 are registered with a mosque organized by the major islamic umbrella organization. The same number for jews are 20000 and 6000 active in a congregation. So we have 40 times more muslims, meaning you are 20 times more likely to be a victim of an antisemitic hate crime.
That’s quite the massive goalpost moving from “Jews are not safe anywhere else [but Israel]” to “in 2022 in Sweden there were 108 (4% of hate crimes that year) criminally reported cases of anti-semitism” and that’s in a country were criticism of Israel is deemed anti-semitism, so the real figure of actual anti-semitism (i.e. words and actions against people for being Jews, not merelly the criticizing of Israel) is likely to be vastly lower.
For example were I live, Portugal, politicians went out of the way to pass a law that gives Portuguese nationality to those who can indicate (outright proof is not needed and seldom possible) descendence from people belonging to a Jewish group (the Sefardites) expelled from the country in the 17th century, with the curious result that the most famous “Portuguese” person is the Russian billionaire Abramovich and there are quite a lot of “Portuguese” in Israel who have zero relation with country beyond paying the Synagoge in Porto to pass them a certification that they are Sefardites so as to easilly get an EU passport and hence Freedom to travel, live and work in all of the EU.
It absolutelly is Racism, just in the very opposite direction of what you claim: there are actual living persons in Africa who were victims of Forced Labour (i.e. Slavery) by the Portuguese regime there in the 1960s, plus even more people who are direct, provable descendants of such victims, but apparently what’s far, far more important for a certain rightwing political party in Portugal is to compensate the “descendants” of a group (descendants in quotes because few or none can definitivelly prove direct descendency of victims of those actions) for the actions of Portugal against their ancestors 10 generations ago - by an amazing, trully incredible “coincidence” the distant, possible but almost never definitivelly proven, descendants of people expelled from Portugal 300 years ago deemed deserving of compensation for long past actions of Portugal just happen to White, whilst the actual living victims and direct, provable, descendants of victims of the practice of Slavery of Portugal in Africa a mere 6 decades ago who are not deemed deserving of compensation for it, are Black.
There is definitelly a racist double standard going on, and it’s definitelly not anti-semitism.
And don’t get me started on what happens to somebody demonstrating in Germany or Britain against the Genocide in Gaza when detained by the police for it if they are Jewish compare to what happens if they’re Muslim.
Again, a racist double standard, and it’s definitelly not anti-semitism.
“Whites who happen not to be Christian” are the least discriminated against minorities in Europe at the moment except for a handful of places (I believe that Hungary, for example, is pretty anti-semitic).
I mean yeah it does sound like you have a problem with double standards in portugal, no denying that. All i can speak for is what ive seen and what the statistics say. And what iv’e seen is that Jews wearing a kippa are getting shouted at from across the street while muslims absolutely get their share of hatered but they are in no mean in danger just by showing their faith not at the same level so jews here don’t show their religious symbols. We have had weekly pro-palestine protest where they shout praising the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam brigade while in swedish they have much milder wording. And thats fine here, we allow protests and noone is going to stop them. Most people just let them do their thing. I support a part of their message with a free palestine but not the hateful rhetoric.
The statistics is quite telling, but for sake of comparison, lets look at UK.
33% were on jews, 38% on muslims. By population count, they have a factor of 12 times more crimes against them.
Anyhow the argument that they should move or give up their country is no better than what the israeli government is doing right now.
Interestingly, I lived in the UK for over a decade, so here are some observations:
First the UK legally considers many forms of criticism of Israel to be anti-semitism, which vastly multiplies the official count of “hate crimes” against Jews, especially since the Genocide in Gaza really went from slow burn to full steam ahead, as for example anybody shouting during a Peace In Palestine demonstration “From the land to the sea, Palestine will be free” is per the legislation there deemed to have committed an anti-semitic hate crime.
Second, over there I had friends and acquaintances who were Jewish, Muslim, Black, Indian, British, Asian and non-British European and have never once heard any of my Jewish friends or acquaintances complain of being discriminated against whilst I’ve heard more than once that from Muslim friends, including a tale were members of the London Transit Police displayed outrageous racism against a Turkish friend of mine and his friends at a train stop because they “dared” to challenge a white girl who cut the queue to the ticket booth - I can’t speak for his mates but this guy wasn’t at all a violent person and was even married to an English woman, so its extremely unlikely he was being threatening much less violent. However he definitely had stereotypical Turkish looks.
I’ve also heard reports of being victim of Racism from Black friends and Indian friends, and I myself as a Southern European was a victim of racial prejudice over there.
From Indian friends I even heard a tale of the police outright refusing to accept the report of a crime from one of their friends whose wallet had been stolen. If the police won’t accept a crime report it doesn’t end up in the crime statistics. Keep this in mind because I’ll be back to it later.
Now, keep in mind that London has an entire area with Orthodox Jews, so people dressed in a way which is very visibly according to some Jewish traditions and not merely wearing a kippa (which I’ve also seen, all over London).
My impression, also from the political speech over there, is that actual discrimination and racial hate crimes (the real deal ones, because of ethnicity, not the “criticism of Israel is a ‘hate crime’” bollocks) against Jews in Britain is pretty much just random insults on the street. Meanwhile the ones against Muslims, Indians and Blacks are amongst others done by the actual police, as well as being discriminated against by Public Services and in Courts.
(I have never, not once, heard of a Jewish Person in Britain being a victim of racial discrimination by the Authorities. Meanwhile even members of the police with Southeast Asian ancestry report being victims of discrimination within the force)
Third, and circling back to the story told to me by Indian friends, consider the possibility that most crimes against the people whom the police themselves discriminates against are far less likely to be recorded (and definitely the police themselves will not record their own displays of racial hate) and thus do not appear in the statistics. Further, Jews in Britain are overwhelmingly Middle and Upper-Middle class, which in that country (which is very classist) makes it even more likely that, simply because they dress right, have the right accent and use the right words (and in some cases are even themselves Solicitors, Barristers or even High Court judges) when they do pop up on a police station to report a hate crime it gets treated seriously, whilst if, say, a Working class son of an Arab immigrant pops up on a police station he’s not taken seriously, is given the run around and is dissuaded from pushing for it to be investigated.
That idea that in the present day Jews are discriminated against all over the place is ridiculous. Certainly from what I’ve seen in the European countries I lived in, the actual authorities either treat them exactly the same as non-Jew whites or even discriminate “in their favor”. They also tend to benefit from the inequality of treatment based on wealth in present day society in most of Europe because for historical reasons they’re more likely to be Middle Class or higher than other minorities (who generally are either people from poorer countries or the direct descendants of such people hence not having had much chance at social mobility away from their class of birth, hence Working Class or even Poor).
This is not to deny that there is real anti-semitism in Europe, mainly committed by individuals with Far-Right ideologies. The difference compared to other minorities is that Jews are not discriminated against by the Authorities and are in fact taken seriously when they report having been a victim of a hate crime (plus in some countries, such as the UK and Germany, have actual political power explicitly backing “The Jewish People” - i.e. politicians openly practicing racial discrimination in favor of their ethnicity).
To wrap this up, from all I’ve heard from Jewish friends in Britain, you can have a very good life as a Jew over there, same as the locals (better if you’re upper-middle class) and to me there being entire areas in London were Orthodox Jews overtly dress according to their tradition (plus beyond that I’ve often seen people wearing the kippa), is a pretty good indication that they do not fear being victimized by anti-semites.
(Also from what I saw reported on TV back there - and note that this was before the latest Genocide in Gaza - just about all reported cases of “anti-semitism” were “criticism of Israel”, including an extraordinary situation were, for the political purpose of damaging the then leader of the center-left party, a Jewish Holocaust Survivor was accused of being an anti-semite for having compared some of the actions of Israel in Palestine to those of the Nazis during a conference for Palestine - in a country were repeatedly on national television it’s implied that a Jewish Holocaust Survivor!!! committed a hate crime against the Jewish People, it seems a little naive to trust that the statistics on hate crimes against Jews there are a genuine reflection of reality).
That doom statement you’ve several posts ago which triggered my initial response, stands in sharp contradiction to what I’ve observed in the countries of Europe I lived in and what I’ve been told by Jewish friends there, especially compared to other minorities living there some of which are definitely victims of racial discrimination at all levels including by the Authorities themselves, which are almost certainly severely under-reported due to a phenomenon very similar to how rapes are severely under-counted in the more sexist countries.
I respect thay you might have a different point of view based on your experiences. I also have family in the UK that so i’m there regularly and follow what is going on. But the fact is that of those that usually wear jewish symbols, 61% avoid wearing them on occasion for their safety and additionally according to this EU survey almost a third is considering emigrating (of the 12 countries surveyed the average was 38% so UK is slightly better than most countries for jews)
Looking at hate crime rates since that survey, they have boomed since the october event.
It does not suprise me at all that it is difficult to acknowledge that people with other backgrounds are subject to hate because that is how we are built. We rather look away and instead of finding out how the situation is, we go by how we feel things are which is why it is good to have statistical resources that paints a picture for the group as a whole.
I acknowledge that jews probably have better chances with authorities than other minorities but that also is not the reason they don’t feel safe wearing their religious symbols.
I hope you understand that i don’t want to make this a “they have it worse” thing. I want to show that their safety is not great, as here a third of their synagogue budgets go to private security. You can’t say that about any other group.
https://bra.se/statistik/statistik-om-rattsvasendet/hatbrottsstatistik
Here is the official statistics of hate crimes in sweden. Antisemitic 4% of total and islamophobic is 8%. However there are around 800000 with a muslim background although only around 230000 are registered with a mosque organized by the major islamic umbrella organization. The same number for jews are 20000 and 6000 active in a congregation. So we have 40 times more muslims, meaning you are 20 times more likely to be a victim of an antisemitic hate crime.
That’s quite the massive goalpost moving from “Jews are not safe anywhere else [but Israel]” to “in 2022 in Sweden there were 108 (4% of hate crimes that year) criminally reported cases of anti-semitism” and that’s in a country were criticism of Israel is deemed anti-semitism, so the real figure of actual anti-semitism (i.e. words and actions against people for being Jews, not merelly the criticizing of Israel) is likely to be vastly lower.
For example were I live, Portugal, politicians went out of the way to pass a law that gives Portuguese nationality to those who can indicate (outright proof is not needed and seldom possible) descendence from people belonging to a Jewish group (the Sefardites) expelled from the country in the 17th century, with the curious result that the most famous “Portuguese” person is the Russian billionaire Abramovich and there are quite a lot of “Portuguese” in Israel who have zero relation with country beyond paying the Synagoge in Porto to pass them a certification that they are Sefardites so as to easilly get an EU passport and hence Freedom to travel, live and work in all of the EU.
It absolutelly is Racism, just in the very opposite direction of what you claim: there are actual living persons in Africa who were victims of Forced Labour (i.e. Slavery) by the Portuguese regime there in the 1960s, plus even more people who are direct, provable descendants of such victims, but apparently what’s far, far more important for a certain rightwing political party in Portugal is to compensate the “descendants” of a group (descendants in quotes because few or none can definitivelly prove direct descendency of victims of those actions) for the actions of Portugal against their ancestors 10 generations ago - by an amazing, trully incredible “coincidence” the distant, possible but almost never definitivelly proven, descendants of people expelled from Portugal 300 years ago deemed deserving of compensation for long past actions of Portugal just happen to White, whilst the actual living victims and direct, provable, descendants of victims of the practice of Slavery of Portugal in Africa a mere 6 decades ago who are not deemed deserving of compensation for it, are Black.
There is definitelly a racist double standard going on, and it’s definitelly not anti-semitism.
And don’t get me started on what happens to somebody demonstrating in Germany or Britain against the Genocide in Gaza when detained by the police for it if they are Jewish compare to what happens if they’re Muslim.
Again, a racist double standard, and it’s definitelly not anti-semitism.
“Whites who happen not to be Christian” are the least discriminated against minorities in Europe at the moment except for a handful of places (I believe that Hungary, for example, is pretty anti-semitic).
I mean yeah it does sound like you have a problem with double standards in portugal, no denying that. All i can speak for is what ive seen and what the statistics say. And what iv’e seen is that Jews wearing a kippa are getting shouted at from across the street while muslims absolutely get their share of hatered but they are in no mean in danger just by showing their faith not at the same level so jews here don’t show their religious symbols. We have had weekly pro-palestine protest where they shout praising the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam brigade while in swedish they have much milder wording. And thats fine here, we allow protests and noone is going to stop them. Most people just let them do their thing. I support a part of their message with a free palestine but not the hateful rhetoric. The statistics is quite telling, but for sake of comparison, lets look at UK.
33% were on jews, 38% on muslims. By population count, they have a factor of 12 times more crimes against them.
Anyhow the argument that they should move or give up their country is no better than what the israeli government is doing right now.
Interestingly, I lived in the UK for over a decade, so here are some observations:
First the UK legally considers many forms of criticism of Israel to be anti-semitism, which vastly multiplies the official count of “hate crimes” against Jews, especially since the Genocide in Gaza really went from slow burn to full steam ahead, as for example anybody shouting during a Peace In Palestine demonstration “From the land to the sea, Palestine will be free” is per the legislation there deemed to have committed an anti-semitic hate crime.
Second, over there I had friends and acquaintances who were Jewish, Muslim, Black, Indian, British, Asian and non-British European and have never once heard any of my Jewish friends or acquaintances complain of being discriminated against whilst I’ve heard more than once that from Muslim friends, including a tale were members of the London Transit Police displayed outrageous racism against a Turkish friend of mine and his friends at a train stop because they “dared” to challenge a white girl who cut the queue to the ticket booth - I can’t speak for his mates but this guy wasn’t at all a violent person and was even married to an English woman, so its extremely unlikely he was being threatening much less violent. However he definitely had stereotypical Turkish looks.
I’ve also heard reports of being victim of Racism from Black friends and Indian friends, and I myself as a Southern European was a victim of racial prejudice over there.
From Indian friends I even heard a tale of the police outright refusing to accept the report of a crime from one of their friends whose wallet had been stolen. If the police won’t accept a crime report it doesn’t end up in the crime statistics. Keep this in mind because I’ll be back to it later.
Now, keep in mind that London has an entire area with Orthodox Jews, so people dressed in a way which is very visibly according to some Jewish traditions and not merely wearing a kippa (which I’ve also seen, all over London).
My impression, also from the political speech over there, is that actual discrimination and racial hate crimes (the real deal ones, because of ethnicity, not the “criticism of Israel is a ‘hate crime’” bollocks) against Jews in Britain is pretty much just random insults on the street. Meanwhile the ones against Muslims, Indians and Blacks are amongst others done by the actual police, as well as being discriminated against by Public Services and in Courts.
(I have never, not once, heard of a Jewish Person in Britain being a victim of racial discrimination by the Authorities. Meanwhile even members of the police with Southeast Asian ancestry report being victims of discrimination within the force)
Third, and circling back to the story told to me by Indian friends, consider the possibility that most crimes against the people whom the police themselves discriminates against are far less likely to be recorded (and definitely the police themselves will not record their own displays of racial hate) and thus do not appear in the statistics. Further, Jews in Britain are overwhelmingly Middle and Upper-Middle class, which in that country (which is very classist) makes it even more likely that, simply because they dress right, have the right accent and use the right words (and in some cases are even themselves Solicitors, Barristers or even High Court judges) when they do pop up on a police station to report a hate crime it gets treated seriously, whilst if, say, a Working class son of an Arab immigrant pops up on a police station he’s not taken seriously, is given the run around and is dissuaded from pushing for it to be investigated.
That idea that in the present day Jews are discriminated against all over the place is ridiculous. Certainly from what I’ve seen in the European countries I lived in, the actual authorities either treat them exactly the same as non-Jew whites or even discriminate “in their favor”. They also tend to benefit from the inequality of treatment based on wealth in present day society in most of Europe because for historical reasons they’re more likely to be Middle Class or higher than other minorities (who generally are either people from poorer countries or the direct descendants of such people hence not having had much chance at social mobility away from their class of birth, hence Working Class or even Poor).
This is not to deny that there is real anti-semitism in Europe, mainly committed by individuals with Far-Right ideologies. The difference compared to other minorities is that Jews are not discriminated against by the Authorities and are in fact taken seriously when they report having been a victim of a hate crime (plus in some countries, such as the UK and Germany, have actual political power explicitly backing “The Jewish People” - i.e. politicians openly practicing racial discrimination in favor of their ethnicity).
To wrap this up, from all I’ve heard from Jewish friends in Britain, you can have a very good life as a Jew over there, same as the locals (better if you’re upper-middle class) and to me there being entire areas in London were Orthodox Jews overtly dress according to their tradition (plus beyond that I’ve often seen people wearing the kippa), is a pretty good indication that they do not fear being victimized by anti-semites.
(Also from what I saw reported on TV back there - and note that this was before the latest Genocide in Gaza - just about all reported cases of “anti-semitism” were “criticism of Israel”, including an extraordinary situation were, for the political purpose of damaging the then leader of the center-left party, a Jewish Holocaust Survivor was accused of being an anti-semite for having compared some of the actions of Israel in Palestine to those of the Nazis during a conference for Palestine - in a country were repeatedly on national television it’s implied that a Jewish Holocaust Survivor!!! committed a hate crime against the Jewish People, it seems a little naive to trust that the statistics on hate crimes against Jews there are a genuine reflection of reality).
That doom statement you’ve several posts ago which triggered my initial response, stands in sharp contradiction to what I’ve observed in the countries of Europe I lived in and what I’ve been told by Jewish friends there, especially compared to other minorities living there some of which are definitely victims of racial discrimination at all levels including by the Authorities themselves, which are almost certainly severely under-reported due to a phenomenon very similar to how rapes are severely under-counted in the more sexist countries.
I respect thay you might have a different point of view based on your experiences. I also have family in the UK that so i’m there regularly and follow what is going on. But the fact is that of those that usually wear jewish symbols, 61% avoid wearing them on occasion for their safety and additionally according to this EU survey almost a third is considering emigrating (of the 12 countries surveyed the average was 38% so UK is slightly better than most countries for jews)
https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra_uploads/fra-2019-2nd-survey-on-discrimination-and-hate-crime-against-jews-in-eu-ms-country-sheet-uk_en.pdf
Looking at hate crime rates since that survey, they have boomed since the october event.
It does not suprise me at all that it is difficult to acknowledge that people with other backgrounds are subject to hate because that is how we are built. We rather look away and instead of finding out how the situation is, we go by how we feel things are which is why it is good to have statistical resources that paints a picture for the group as a whole.
I acknowledge that jews probably have better chances with authorities than other minorities but that also is not the reason they don’t feel safe wearing their religious symbols.
I hope you understand that i don’t want to make this a “they have it worse” thing. I want to show that their safety is not great, as here a third of their synagogue budgets go to private security. You can’t say that about any other group.