• PugJesusBanned from communityEnglish
    14·
    3 months ago

    They defended the recruitment of the Freikorps for the violent suppression of the uprising, which is also a shity turbolib take but not really the same thing.

    It was a questionable decision by the SPD, but also raises the question of what should they have done in their position.

    With few independent paramilitaries, and with the army gutted by the armistice, what immediate forces did they have to call upon to prevent the coup attempt? Even with the call for the Freikorps, the Weimar government’s forces numbered only ~3,000 troops during the uprising’s suppression - and this after the navy servicemen had proven unwilling to engage the putschists.

    • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
      31·
      3 months ago

      but also raises the question of what should they have done in their position.

      Compromise left rather than rightward. If they could work with literal fascists, they could’ve seen what the KPD had to say. Also, not using the army to attack their supposed allies, or even agreeing to reinstate Eichhorn after the fact, would’ve averted this whole thing. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacist_uprising#Background_and_causes.

      and this after the navy servicemen had proven unwilling to engage the putschists.

      Fuckin wonder why.

      • PugJesusBanned from communityEnglish
        13·
        3 months ago

        Compromise left rather than rightward. If they could work with literal fascists, they could’ve seen what the KPD had to say.

        As you yourself admit, negotiations were had. They saw what the KPD had to say - and one of their core demands was to restore to power someone who had taken leftist politicians hostage for being insufficiently leftist.

        Also, not using the army to attack their supposed allies

        Their supposed allies who were attempting a coup? This leads back around to the idea that the SPD should’ve rolled over and fucking died.

        Fuckin wonder why.

        Because the navy was extremely left-wing at the time?

        • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
          31·
          3 months ago

          Not to be rude but like, was your major in alt history? You clearly need a heavy refresher on the German revolution before you’re qualified to talk about this, so I’d suggest you start with that before responding. To be clear, I’ll downvote and move on if your next response isn’t at least mostly rooted in fact.

          someone who had taken leftist politicians hostage for being insufficiently leftist.

          Nope. See:

          On 23 December, a dispute arose over back pay owed to the People’s Marine Division (Volksmarinedivision), which had been assigned to protect the provisional government in Berlin. In an attempt to force payment, the sailors took Otto Wels (MSPD), the military commander of Berlin, hostage. The following day, when the three MSPD members of the Council of the People’s Deputies ordered Berlin’s police chief, Emil Eichhorn (USPD), to use the security forces under his command to free Wels, he refused.

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartacist_uprising#Background_and_causes

          Eichhorn’s “fault” in all this was not using the police to crack down on leftist allies with legitimate grievances. He was not at all involved in the hostage taking, which the navy men didn’t do because the politician “wasn’t sufficiently leftist;” as clearly stated in the article, it was a dispute over back pay.

          Their supposed allies who were attempting a coup?

          No “coup” (“revolution” makes a lot more sense as a label) yet. The army thing is referring to this:

          Ebert then had the Army called in and ordered it to use deadly force against the People’s Navy Division in what came to be known as the 1918 Christmas crisis. Wels was freed, but eleven men from the People’s Marine Division and 56 from the Army were killed.

          Eichhorn would be subsequently dismissed, not for anything you stated but because he wouldn’t “reliably” immediately resort to deadly force against fellow leftists. This would be the immediately spark of the uprising.

          On 29 December, the three USPD representatives on the Council resigned in protest. The MSPD representatives then appointed two MSPD members to replace them. After that the USPD no longer saw the Council as a legitimate interim government. MSPD majorities in the workers’ councils agreed to Ebert’s wish to dismiss Police Chief Eichhorn, whom he now considered unreliable,[12] but the USPD and KPD interpreted Eichhorn’s dismissal as an attack on the revolution. This became the immediate trigger of the uprising.

          Because the navy was extremely left-wing at the time?

          Because the people Ebert called the army on were the navy servicemen. They knew firsthand how ghoulish that asshole really was.

          • PugJesusBanned from communityEnglish
            11·
            3 months ago

            Not to be rude but like, was your major in alt history? You clearly need a heavy refresher on the German revolution before you’re qualified to talk about this, so I’d suggest you start with that before responding. To be clear, I’ll downvote and move on if your next response isn’t at least mostly rooted in fact.

            Sorry that you don’t like your own source being quoted to contradict you?

            Nope

            Yep

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Wels

            On 9 November 1918, the date of the proclamation of the republic in Germany, Wels spoke to the Naumburg rifle brigade at their request to explain the political situation following the collapse of the German Empire at the end of World War I. The brigade was one of the units considered especially loyal to Emperor Wilhelm II that had been brought into the city as reinforcements against revolutionary activity. Wels convinced the soldiers that to avoid a civil war they should not use their weapons. At the end of his speech, the brigade went over in a body to the side of the supporters of the German Revolution. Buoyed by his success, Wels spoke at other barracks so persuasively that he was credited with keeping the death toll that day to just fifteen.[4]

            Also on 9 November, Wels became a member of the revolutionary Workers’ and Soldiers’ Council of Berlin. He advocated successfully for the Independent Social Democratic Party (USPD) – a more leftist and anti-war group that had broken away from the SPD in 1917 – to be represented equally with the SPD on the Council. The next day, he was made military commander of Berlin.[5]

            The Volksmarinedivision was the revolution’s main military unit in Berlin and as such under Wels’ control. In December 1918, the Council of People’s Deputies, Germany’s temporary government, ordered the division to move outside Berlin and reduce the number of its soldiers. When they refused, Wels withheld their pay to force them to comply. During the week before Christmas, he attempted to negotiate with them, but when no progress was made, they detained and maltreated him.[6] Assaults on the division’s locations at the Berlin Palace and Neuer Marstall by regular troops loyal to the government – the 1918 Christmas crisis – failed to dislodge the mutineers. Negotiations led to a compromise under which the Volksmarinedivision, in exchange for receiving its back pay and remaining a unit, vacated the Palace and Marstall and freed Wels, who was forced to step down from his position as city commander.[7]

            No “coup” (“revolution” makes a lot more sense as a label) yet.

            “It’s a revolution because I like this attempt to prevent democratic elections”

            The army thing is referring to this:

            As mentioned and quoted above, it’s not “a dispute over backpay”

            Eichhorn would be subsequently dismissed, not for anything you stated but because he wouldn’t “reliably” immediately resort to deadly force against fellow leftists.

            “It’s okay if a police chief approves of military forces taking politicians hostages if I really agree with them”

            Because the people Ebert called the army on were the navy servicemen. They knew firsthand how ghoulish that asshole really was.

            “Ghoulish is when the civilian government doesn’t allow the military to make its own orders and take hostages whenever it likes”

            If you think my position is unnecessarily prejudiced against the uprising and not worth responding to, that’s fine. But I think you’re really downplaying the connection between the Bolsheviks and the thinking of the leadership of the Spartacist Uprising.