Okay, but I’m looking at all these frantic edits and P.S. additions “for the record” and I am wondering one thing. It’s a serious question, and not intended to disrespect. But I have to ask you:
What happens for you personally if I disregard the evidence of my eyes and lived experience and agree with you?
Because I literally do not have it in my soul to do so, nor does anyone with a conscience. How is it you find yourself standing so far outside of that group, and what does it do for you? Because I would literally, actively rather be dead than to be a person espousing the murder of a traffic violator under the color of law, and if there is some other way I can find human commonality with you I will, just because you’re clearly so invested.
So I ask you again: What happens for you personally if I disregard the evidence of my eyes and lived experience and agree with you?
Let’s find a shortcut that does not require me to sell my soul to third-party fascist propaganda to find the human commonality you seek here.
Well I wouldn’t really call the edits frantic, but I have a bad habit of writing something, and then realizing something could be more clear. You also attacked me pretty hard for using “talk to her” language when I was just going with the existing conversation, and I felt that deserved another reply.
What evidence am I trying to get you to disregard?
She was stopped in the middle of the road, for multiple minutes, impeding traffic while there was an ICE operation going on in the area. These are undisputed facts at this point. These aren’t alternative facts or anything like that, they are facts.
This was also clearly some act of civil disobedience, protest, or as others are suggesting, some form or trying to monitor the situation, but I haven’t seen any legitimate rational for what she did that wasn’t related to ICE activity.
If that activity is meant to impede ICE, then ICE had reason enough to approach her, and I don’t think it’s a stretch for ICE to be able to claim they believed it was related to their ongoing enforcement actions, but that might have to be tried in court.
I never once said that what the ICE officer did afterwards was acceptable or warranted.
We lambaste the far right for ignoring facts or making things up, or jumping to pitch forks on everything, but someone here saying there was no reason for ICE to be talking to her, and then this comment shit storm happening for simply pointing out, ICE had a reason to initiate contact, is the exact same problem we go on about with MAGA. That really saddens me. And honestly I wasn’t looking for this shit storm, I was just trying to inform the misinformed poster about why the ICE officer had initiated contact.
Also, what were learning about what happened is also changing quickly, and people might not even know the latest information, and is in fact what happened here.
OP that I was interacting with eventually replied to me
I have no idea what you’re talking about. I think I’ve seen 6-7 different videos and all of them so far start with her appearing to be turning the car around.
So I replied with the CNN video that has footage that started minutes before the ICE interaction where it shows her blocking the road for minutes.
OP has since said
Okay. So I was wrong initially said that they had no reason to talk to her. What difference does that make anyhow?
You know what would have happened if OP first reply to was that comment about 6-7 videos instead of a veiled accusation that I was saying it was her fault she was murdered?
I would have posted the video, they would have become more informed on the ever changing topic, and it would have been over.
As to what difference it makes - simply that they could properly focus their anger instead of saying something incorrect, which would add more validity to what they write.
So back to your what do i get question…
That there’s still some hope that discourse around opposing MAGA won’t fully go down the MAGA hole on the other end of the spectrum as well. Because if that happens, we might dig ourselves out of one hole, while digging ourselves into another, and comment chains like my reply started really has me fearing that that is the path were headed down.
Edit: P.S. This is a fake edit. I hope I don’t have to make a real edit after calling me out on edits.
That there’s still some hope that discourse around opposing MAGA won’t fully go down the MAGA hole on the other end of the spectrum as well. Because if that happens, we might dig ourselves out of one hole, while digging ourselves into another, and comment chains like my reply started really has me fearing that that is the path were headed down.
Thank you for your reasoned reply. I think I understand now what you were getting at.
The problem you were running into – for what’s worth; I recognize now that this was probably not what you meant to do – was, in a word, “Squirrel!” Or to put it another way, allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good. In a roomful of wholesale liars, i.e. MAGA, who are literally making up “fake facts” faster than I can engage with them, I do not worry about minor details.
You’re right, they do love to seize on minor inaccuracies! But in the context of the wider picture, even this too is a lie, a dishonesty intended to distract.
So when you bring your own well-intentioned efforts to dissecting the minutiae in pursuit of perfect accuracy, as in this thread, at that point you are fighting their battle for them, which is to detract by any means fair or foul from basic acknowledgement that 1) a traffic stop which ends in an extrajudicial death sentence on the spot is not normal, 2) that it is 100% murder, and 3) that this extrajudicial murder on behalf of the government is itself proof that we as a country have entered into fascism.
To be clear, it is any refusal to concede this set of three reasonable conclusions, and not your edits, nor the factual picture still emerging, with which I find great fault.
Thank you again for explaining your position; I very much appreciate it.
EDITED to add that in rereading I see that I failed to express that I do very much value your commitment to factuality: there is no substitute, and if we are ever to find common ground again it must start there, which means that in a way you’re defending the most important thing of all. That got lost in my effort to remain on topic. But I do highly value real facts, which are thin on the ground anymore, and I wanted to make sure that high personal standard on your part got pointed out as well.
Hell, I probably owe you an apology, because I honestly believed you were posting in defense of the murder and you thought you were doing anything but. I guess we can leave it as lessons learned on both sides: you’ll watch your Squirrel!-ing and I’ll read a bit more carefully before replying to these things. Hope you have a great night, and thank you again.
also, for the record OP was using the “talk to her” language.
Okay, but I’m looking at all these frantic edits and P.S. additions “for the record” and I am wondering one thing. It’s a serious question, and not intended to disrespect. But I have to ask you:
What happens for you personally if I disregard the evidence of my eyes and lived experience and agree with you?
Because I literally do not have it in my soul to do so, nor does anyone with a conscience. How is it you find yourself standing so far outside of that group, and what does it do for you? Because I would literally, actively rather be dead than to be a person espousing the murder of a traffic violator under the color of law, and if there is some other way I can find human commonality with you I will, just because you’re clearly so invested.
So I ask you again: What happens for you personally if I disregard the evidence of my eyes and lived experience and agree with you?
Let’s find a shortcut that does not require me to sell my soul to third-party fascist propaganda to find the human commonality you seek here.
EDITED a word
Well I wouldn’t really call the edits frantic, but I have a bad habit of writing something, and then realizing something could be more clear. You also attacked me pretty hard for using “talk to her” language when I was just going with the existing conversation, and I felt that deserved another reply.
What evidence am I trying to get you to disregard?
She was stopped in the middle of the road, for multiple minutes, impeding traffic while there was an ICE operation going on in the area. These are undisputed facts at this point. These aren’t alternative facts or anything like that, they are facts.
This was also clearly some act of civil disobedience, protest, or as others are suggesting, some form or trying to monitor the situation, but I haven’t seen any legitimate rational for what she did that wasn’t related to ICE activity.
If that activity is meant to impede ICE, then ICE had reason enough to approach her, and I don’t think it’s a stretch for ICE to be able to claim they believed it was related to their ongoing enforcement actions, but that might have to be tried in court.
I never once said that what the ICE officer did afterwards was acceptable or warranted.
We lambaste the far right for ignoring facts or making things up, or jumping to pitch forks on everything, but someone here saying there was no reason for ICE to be talking to her, and then this comment shit storm happening for simply pointing out, ICE had a reason to initiate contact, is the exact same problem we go on about with MAGA. That really saddens me. And honestly I wasn’t looking for this shit storm, I was just trying to inform the misinformed poster about why the ICE officer had initiated contact.
Also, what were learning about what happened is also changing quickly, and people might not even know the latest information, and is in fact what happened here.
OP that I was interacting with eventually replied to me
So I replied with the CNN video that has footage that started minutes before the ICE interaction where it shows her blocking the road for minutes.
OP has since said
You know what would have happened if OP first reply to was that comment about 6-7 videos instead of a veiled accusation that I was saying it was her fault she was murdered?
I would have posted the video, they would have become more informed on the ever changing topic, and it would have been over.
As to what difference it makes - simply that they could properly focus their anger instead of saying something incorrect, which would add more validity to what they write.
So back to your what do i get question…
That there’s still some hope that discourse around opposing MAGA won’t fully go down the MAGA hole on the other end of the spectrum as well. Because if that happens, we might dig ourselves out of one hole, while digging ourselves into another, and comment chains like my reply started really has me fearing that that is the path were headed down.
Edit: P.S. This is a fake edit. I hope I don’t have to make a real edit after calling me out on edits.
Thank you for your reasoned reply. I think I understand now what you were getting at.
The problem you were running into – for what’s worth; I recognize now that this was probably not what you meant to do – was, in a word, “Squirrel!” Or to put it another way, allowing the perfect to be the enemy of the good. In a roomful of wholesale liars, i.e. MAGA, who are literally making up “fake facts” faster than I can engage with them, I do not worry about minor details.
You’re right, they do love to seize on minor inaccuracies! But in the context of the wider picture, even this too is a lie, a dishonesty intended to distract.
So when you bring your own well-intentioned efforts to dissecting the minutiae in pursuit of perfect accuracy, as in this thread, at that point you are fighting their battle for them, which is to detract by any means fair or foul from basic acknowledgement that 1) a traffic stop which ends in an extrajudicial death sentence on the spot is not normal, 2) that it is 100% murder, and 3) that this extrajudicial murder on behalf of the government is itself proof that we as a country have entered into fascism.
To be clear, it is any refusal to concede this set of three reasonable conclusions, and not your edits, nor the factual picture still emerging, with which I find great fault.
Thank you again for explaining your position; I very much appreciate it.
EDITED to add that in rereading I see that I failed to express that I do very much value your commitment to factuality: there is no substitute, and if we are ever to find common ground again it must start there, which means that in a way you’re defending the most important thing of all. That got lost in my effort to remain on topic. But I do highly value real facts, which are thin on the ground anymore, and I wanted to make sure that high personal standard on your part got pointed out as well.
Thanks, I also appreciate your attempt at reaching out as well in the message before this one.
I can also see rationale behind your Squirrel explanation. I’ll keep that in mind in the future.
And I do 100% agree with all 3 of your points, there is no dispute there.
Hell, I probably owe you an apology, because I honestly believed you were posting in defense of the murder and you thought you were doing anything but. I guess we can leave it as lessons learned on both sides: you’ll watch your Squirrel!-ing and I’ll read a bit more carefully before replying to these things. Hope you have a great night, and thank you again.