Why don’t you take this opportunity to post evidence of common misconceptions for other readers? /gen
Maybe I’m coming around on China, it’s the only one of those I would disagree with. So try to dispel some of my opinions on the Ugyhur situation. I got banned from .ml last night so I didn’t get to finish my fun argument.
I lived in Urumqi for a few months (also met some Ugyhurs when I was living in Kazakhstan).
So try to dispel some of my opinions on the Ugyhur situation.
I can’t dispel them if I don’t know the specifics, but in general, what you hear in western media is either made up or taken wildly out of context.
Until the 2010s, there were significant issues with terrorism, with riots happening in Urumqi. There’s still a few glass panels you can see where it doesn’t quite match the rest of the underpass entrance or whatever. The government responded by 1. absolutely massive economic development projects, from wind farms to greenbelts and infrastructure, 2. Increased affirmative action, so a lot more Uhygurs were going to college in Beijing and Shanghai, and 3. sending basically anyone convicted of any crime to a job-training facility, the idea being that people who have jobs would be less disenfranchised and harder to radicalize. It was generally successful in that there’s been fewer terrorist attacks and a lot more economic development among the Ugyhur population, but 3 was unpopular enough they wound that down in the late 2010/early 2020s. Other measures to stop the terrorist attacks include hiring a shitton of police and security guards. Every mall, apartment building, and hotel has at least 1, sometimes 2 60 year old guards on their phones. They often can’t read or speak mandarin fluently.
Orthogonal to this there’s a sort of racist/patriarchal attitude you see from some Han people the government tries to address somewhat with anti-discrimination laws.
There’s a struggle in Xinjiang (and much of China) about how to bring intangible aspects of cultures into modernity, often it’s resolved through creating a commercialized version of the thing that can sustain itself in a market economy. I have mixed feelings here.
How can 3 be anything more than effectively being labor camps? Can you personally or do you know someone personally that attests to whether they had a choice? Whether there were protections in place? Whether these were all fairly deemed “criminals”? What were their crimes? I think I saw someone use the figure 1million? There’s just no way that can be ethical, right?
How can 3 be anything more than effectively being labor camps?
Because they’re primarily about training them for a job when they get out.
do you know someone personally that attests to whether they had a choice
I never actually met anyone who had been sent to one, and only a couple people even vaguely knew what I was talking about to explain more. To be clear I only know a handful of phrases in Uhygur and Mandarin, most of these conversations happened via google translate, often after a few drinks. I’d usually approach the subject by asking about history and how things have changed over their lifetime, proceeding to “There’s more police than anywhere else I’ve been in China” “did you hear what the western media is saying” and see what they felt like talking about.
Whether there were protections in place? Whether these were all fairly deemed “criminals”?
They were deemed criminals by the justice system. I have only slightly more faith in the Chinese justice system than other country’s, but 1. acab, obviously some innocent people got caught up, and 2. Petty crime shouldn’t result in people getting taken away from their family for months.
I think I saw someone use the figure 1million?
Yeah no any figures you see estimated by western media either comes from Adrien Zenz’s ass or redditors drawing red circles around random buildings on google earth.
There’s just no way that can be ethical, right?
It wasn’t, people were getting punished by spending months away from their family over petty crime. That’s why they stopped it.
So it sounds like they were being over policed and didn’t really personally know the extent of it because they weren’t deemed criminals and weren’t directly affected?
Okay cool.
I got that figure from someone defending China over it iirc so I’m guessing it’s accurate if you don’t know offhand.
Okay so they stopped it? Does that mean I’m supposed to go back to trusting the government? How do you square that?
Additionally: if a significant portion of the population was imprisoned, especially systematically by race, held against their will, and people were dying as a result of that, I would say that is the beginnings of a genocide. Just like how America is currently perpetuating Black genocide imo. Even if they didn’t fully commit or succeed, I can’t just go back to trusting that system.
The purpose of the program was to create people who can get jobs and be integrated into the economy. Making someone spend months doing hard labor isn’t useful for decreasing terrorism and increasing economic development.
So it sounds like they were being over policed
Yes
didn’t really personally know the extent of it
They mostly chalked it up to the crime and terrorism. They didn’t have much a response to “but it’s safe now, why are there still so many cops”.
Okay so they stopped it? Does that mean I’m supposed to go back to trusting the government? How do you square that?
Nobody said you should trust the Chinese government, I said you should not trust the US government or help them justify hostile action against foreign countries.
The Uhygur people have their own struggles, that are entirely alien to the stories cooked up in western media.
I got that figure from someone defending China over it iirc so I’m guessing it’s accurate if you don’t know offhand.
That’s 1 in 20 Uhygurs, I feel like it would have had a more pronounced effect and at that scale, I wouldn’t run into people who seemed to have no idea it happened.
Why don’t you take this opportunity to post evidence of common misconceptions for other readers? /gen
Maybe I’m coming around on China, it’s the only one of those I would disagree with. So try to dispel some of my opinions on the Ugyhur situation. I got banned from .ml last night so I didn’t get to finish my fun argument.
I lived in Urumqi for a few months (also met some Ugyhurs when I was living in Kazakhstan).
I can’t dispel them if I don’t know the specifics, but in general, what you hear in western media is either made up or taken wildly out of context.
Until the 2010s, there were significant issues with terrorism, with riots happening in Urumqi. There’s still a few glass panels you can see where it doesn’t quite match the rest of the underpass entrance or whatever. The government responded by 1. absolutely massive economic development projects, from wind farms to greenbelts and infrastructure, 2. Increased affirmative action, so a lot more Uhygurs were going to college in Beijing and Shanghai, and 3. sending basically anyone convicted of any crime to a job-training facility, the idea being that people who have jobs would be less disenfranchised and harder to radicalize. It was generally successful in that there’s been fewer terrorist attacks and a lot more economic development among the Ugyhur population, but 3 was unpopular enough they wound that down in the late 2010/early 2020s. Other measures to stop the terrorist attacks include hiring a shitton of police and security guards. Every mall, apartment building, and hotel has at least 1, sometimes 2 60 year old guards on their phones. They often can’t read or speak mandarin fluently.
Orthogonal to this there’s a sort of racist/patriarchal attitude you see from some Han people the government tries to address somewhat with anti-discrimination laws.
There’s a struggle in Xinjiang (and much of China) about how to bring intangible aspects of cultures into modernity, often it’s resolved through creating a commercialized version of the thing that can sustain itself in a market economy. I have mixed feelings here.
How can 3 be anything more than effectively being labor camps? Can you personally or do you know someone personally that attests to whether they had a choice? Whether there were protections in place? Whether these were all fairly deemed “criminals”? What were their crimes? I think I saw someone use the figure 1million? There’s just no way that can be ethical, right?
Because they’re primarily about training them for a job when they get out.
I never actually met anyone who had been sent to one, and only a couple people even vaguely knew what I was talking about to explain more. To be clear I only know a handful of phrases in Uhygur and Mandarin, most of these conversations happened via google translate, often after a few drinks. I’d usually approach the subject by asking about history and how things have changed over their lifetime, proceeding to “There’s more police than anywhere else I’ve been in China” “did you hear what the western media is saying” and see what they felt like talking about.
They were deemed criminals by the justice system. I have only slightly more faith in the Chinese justice system than other country’s, but 1. acab, obviously some innocent people got caught up, and 2. Petty crime shouldn’t result in people getting taken away from their family for months.
Yeah no any figures you see estimated by western media either comes from Adrien Zenz’s ass or redditors drawing red circles around random buildings on google earth.
It wasn’t, people were getting punished by spending months away from their family over petty crime. That’s why they stopped it.
I mean. According to who?
So it sounds like they were being over policed and didn’t really personally know the extent of it because they weren’t deemed criminals and weren’t directly affected?
Okay cool.
I got that figure from someone defending China over it iirc so I’m guessing it’s accurate if you don’t know offhand.
Okay so they stopped it? Does that mean I’m supposed to go back to trusting the government? How do you square that?
Additionally: if a significant portion of the population was imprisoned, especially systematically by race, held against their will, and people were dying as a result of that, I would say that is the beginnings of a genocide. Just like how America is currently perpetuating Black genocide imo. Even if they didn’t fully commit or succeed, I can’t just go back to trusting that system.
The purpose of the program was to create people who can get jobs and be integrated into the economy. Making someone spend months doing hard labor isn’t useful for decreasing terrorism and increasing economic development.
Yes
They mostly chalked it up to the crime and terrorism. They didn’t have much a response to “but it’s safe now, why are there still so many cops”.
Nobody said you should trust the Chinese government, I said you should not trust the US government or help them justify hostile action against foreign countries.
The Uhygur people have their own struggles, that are entirely alien to the stories cooked up in western media.
That’s 1 in 20 Uhygurs, I feel like it would have had a more pronounced effect and at that scale, I wouldn’t run into people who seemed to have no idea it happened.
I’m pretty confident that didn’t happen.