EDIT: for those downvoting me, I would be happy to engage in a civil discussion about why you think I’m wrong, and even change my mind if I’m mistaken.
This is extremely dumb for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it’s very clearly written with a certain bias.
A (the communist) is describing a tankie. But generally someone who identifies specifically as a communist is not authoritarian, they’re closer to anarchocommunism than the reverse.
B (the lefty antifascist) describes them as a subtype of A, but antifascists are diametrically opposed to tankies, ideologically. Also, “antifascist” is a word that has long been used to label a specific group of leftists… calling them “lefty antifascists” implies that there are also “right-wing antifascists,” trying to equivocate the sides by generalizing the word. Also, most importantly, the description is 100% bullshit.
C (the hard right) a single token addition of a very generic “hard” right person, to appear balanced. No making fun of this person like in the rest of the descriptions, just a list of facts… except “always an arsehole” which I would argue most of these people would enjoy reading about themselves because they would think it was funny and kind of true. Clearly the target audience.
D (the contrarian) this is the modern right wing lowest common denominator person, and an accurate description of the archetype, but no mention of left/right in this description. Wonder why?
E (the peacenik) what? Peacenik is just another historically left-wing-associated label. These people do not have a unified view of how to end the conflict, and certainly don’t frequently suggest ceding land to an invader. That’s a really stupid take on pacifism, and it’s just another dig at the left.
This is definitely dumb and probably just plain old propaganda.
I assuming you mean the post was written from a right wing perspective correct?(that’s what I got from your post at least)
I think it’s written more from a well meaning liberal perspective. Probably doesn’t understand the labels they’re using, or at the very least oversimplifying people so that they crunch into the parameters they have created.
A They probably do mean tanky, and I myself have made this association in error. After all “Tanky” in the way it is used now is not as well known as the word communist, and many people who are tankies do describe themselves as communists.
B I’ve met people like these myself. One of my friends was in this camp until recently. Many of these people still look at Ukraine as it was pre Maidan, and don’t realize the majority of people within the country don’t support the fascist elements within. Plus there is Russian prop specifically aimed at hitting antifascists. They sold the initial invasion as a “denazification”. If you are just listening to the words spoken by the leaders, and not seeing the atrocities the Russians are committing in Ukraine, I can see how one could fall for it.
C Describes a lot of the people in my part of the US actually, though, not all of them support Russia fighting in Ukraine. Rather they are more of a combination of this and E, where they want to get back to admiring Russia without dealing with the cognitive dissonance of Russia committing warcrimes in Ukraine, and also getting their ass handed to them.
D This used to be me until maybe 2014, and God knows where I would be today if I still acted this way. Basically anything that was considered “bad” of “forbidden”, I wanted in. The upside is this is what led me into reading the Communist Manifesto, the Quran, and other “forbidden” materials that led me out of my close minded conservatism, but on the otherhand, I also read Mein Kampf, gave the BotD to many fascist and conferderate leaning people, and followed a lot of Russian news uncritically, and even had a Soviet idolization phase of my own. A lot of my mindset at the time was this really weird form of libertarianism combined with unbridled contrarianism.
E I feel this can include a lot of people from any perspective. Leftists who think appose NATO more than Russia’s imperialism, Rightist who see the writing on the wall, and think the war should end while Russia is still ahead, to people who associate the increase in costs of living with the war, and simply want it to end no matter what ASAP for their own sake. I feel this could be expanded into several catagories, but then again, everything here is a severe oversimplification.
So are there flaws with this post: absolutely, but I don’t think it was written in bad faith.
I can understand your viewpoint, but I don’t agree with it. I think you’re missing the signs that this was written to promote a right-wing narrative about leftists.
You say you think it’s written by a “well-meaning liberal perspective,” but none of the things you mention point to it being a liberal’s perspective, except for the implication that you are a well-meaning liberal and thus you identify with it. Coming from a liberal who interacts with mostly liberal people, and who has been friends with people on the left and right and talked philosophy with both: A, B, and E are just not written from the normal perspective of a left-leaning person.
By your explanation, you clearly understand the C and D roles best, which are the right-wing descriptions. Could it be that you are projecting a liberal perspective on something that is clearly a right-wing narrative because you are used to seeing this narrative, despite identifying as a liberal now?
If you have not studied communism, and your main contact with communism is tankies on Lemmy and “communist” dictatorships in history, then I understand why you would think that.
But communists by and large are not tankies, and do not wish for states like the USSR, China, or North Korea. Those people typically identify as Marxist-Leninists (promoted mainly by Stalin after Lenin died), and yep they’re authoritarian, and they’re loud. And, despite the name, Marx himself would disapprove of this ideology for a number of reasons.
Read even just the first paragraph of the Wikipedia articles on ”Communism” and “Communist society.”
A communist society would entail the absence of private property and social classes, and ultimately money and the state (or nation state).
Communists want no state; it is effectively a type of anarchist or radically democratic ideology, where the citizens all equally share power through common ownership of industry… the very opposite of authoritarianism.
A communist society is characterized by common ownership of the means of production with free access to the articles of consumption and is classless, stateless, and moneyless, implying the end of the exploitation of labour.
The term communist society should be distinguished from the Western concept of the communist state, the latter referring to a state ruled by a party which professes a variation of Marxism–Leninism.
Communism is not an authoritarian philosophy. If you go talk to people in real life who identify as communists, you will tend to find communists as described in these articles. If you look on lemmy.ml, however, you’ll find lots of Marxist-Leninists (tankies) because that’s who the instance was made by… but that’s not really representative of communism as a whole, and many communists find that philosophy repulsive.
My main contact with communism is that I was born and raised in a communist country. Communism IS a 100% authoritarian regime. Allways was, allways will be.
That’s interesting, which country? I’d be willing to bet that the government does not actually describe itself as communist, but instead as a Marxist-Leninist socialist government, because even they know that what they do is not communism.
I’m willing to bet that because most (if not all) “communist” states in the world actually describe themselves as socialist, not communist, following Marxism-Leninism or some variation thereof. As far as I know, all of them do. So, which one are you from?
USSR. All these lefty regimes are 100% totalitarian. The whole premise of Marxism and variations is to remove individual rights and freedoms. It doesn’t matter how you spin it.
But it is apparent from any reading of the Communist Manifesto that the premise of Marxism is not to remove individual rights and freedoms, regardless of how you think it works out in practice.
Yeah, this is precisely the kind of state I was talking about. Thanks for confirming. I’ve explained twice in responses to you, and you haven’t actually addressed my points, so maybe you don’t understand what I’m saying.
The whole premise of Marxism and variations is to remove individual rights and freedoms
If you think Marxism-Leninism actually represents what Marx laid out as communism, you are mistaken. Marxism-Leninism was just Stalin-branded autocratic socialism—Marx had no say in the name. Neither did Lenin, for that matter, unless I’m forgetting my history. This, again, is precisely what I was talking about.
It doesn’t matter how you spin it
I think you should go back and read my original comment and see that the whole point was to unravel the actual spin in this image. No matter how you spin it, this meme places an unwarranted amount of blame on Western leftists while describing each label inaccurately and with a traditionally right-wing slant.
I downvoted you because I don’t think you are being objective and instead are bringing your own prejudices and preconceptions to your analysis. Basically you are guilty of the same kinds of bias that you accuse OP of.
Of course I’m biased. Everyone is. But am I wrong? My accusation was not that OP is biased, but that the meme itself was trying to secretly promote a right-wing narrative. I understand if you don’t trust me as a biased observer, but you can still read my points and decide whether they are factually correct or not.
If you think I’ve made an error, feel free to respond with a correction. I’m not here to flame anyone, just to point out that I see a vehicle for disinformation. I respect many philosophies on both the left and the right, even if I disagree with them, but regardless of “sides” everyone deserves to make informed decisions arrived at by their own reasoning. When you are manipulated without your knowledge, your ability to reason properly is taken away from you.
My downvote was based on the fact that you didn’t make your bias clear and instead presented your opinion as fact. Maybe that’s a “me” problem as I have a background in journalism and by formal training dislike any statement of opinion that is not specifically qualified as such.
Though I don’t agree with your position, I did not downvote you on that basis and never would unless I thought you were promulgating objectively dangerous or stupid ideas.
EDIT: for those downvoting me, I would be happy to engage in a civil discussion about why you think I’m wrong, and even change my mind if I’m mistaken.
This is extremely dumb for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it’s very clearly written with a certain bias.
A (the communist) is describing a tankie. But generally someone who identifies specifically as a communist is not authoritarian, they’re closer to anarchocommunism than the reverse.
B (the lefty antifascist) describes them as a subtype of A, but antifascists are diametrically opposed to tankies, ideologically. Also, “antifascist” is a word that has long been used to label a specific group of leftists… calling them “lefty antifascists” implies that there are also “right-wing antifascists,” trying to equivocate the sides by generalizing the word. Also, most importantly, the description is 100% bullshit.
C (the hard right) a single token addition of a very generic “hard” right person, to appear balanced. No making fun of this person like in the rest of the descriptions, just a list of facts… except “always an arsehole” which I would argue most of these people would enjoy reading about themselves because they would think it was funny and kind of true. Clearly the target audience.
D (the contrarian) this is the modern right wing lowest common denominator person, and an accurate description of the archetype, but no mention of left/right in this description. Wonder why?
E (the peacenik) what? Peacenik is just another historically left-wing-associated label. These people do not have a unified view of how to end the conflict, and certainly don’t frequently suggest ceding land to an invader. That’s a really stupid take on pacifism, and it’s just another dig at the left.
This is definitely dumb and probably just plain old propaganda.
I assuming you mean the post was written from a right wing perspective correct?(that’s what I got from your post at least)
I think it’s written more from a well meaning liberal perspective. Probably doesn’t understand the labels they’re using, or at the very least oversimplifying people so that they crunch into the parameters they have created.
A They probably do mean tanky, and I myself have made this association in error. After all “Tanky” in the way it is used now is not as well known as the word communist, and many people who are tankies do describe themselves as communists.
B I’ve met people like these myself. One of my friends was in this camp until recently. Many of these people still look at Ukraine as it was pre Maidan, and don’t realize the majority of people within the country don’t support the fascist elements within. Plus there is Russian prop specifically aimed at hitting antifascists. They sold the initial invasion as a “denazification”. If you are just listening to the words spoken by the leaders, and not seeing the atrocities the Russians are committing in Ukraine, I can see how one could fall for it.
C Describes a lot of the people in my part of the US actually, though, not all of them support Russia fighting in Ukraine. Rather they are more of a combination of this and E, where they want to get back to admiring Russia without dealing with the cognitive dissonance of Russia committing warcrimes in Ukraine, and also getting their ass handed to them.
D This used to be me until maybe 2014, and God knows where I would be today if I still acted this way. Basically anything that was considered “bad” of “forbidden”, I wanted in. The upside is this is what led me into reading the Communist Manifesto, the Quran, and other “forbidden” materials that led me out of my close minded conservatism, but on the otherhand, I also read Mein Kampf, gave the BotD to many fascist and conferderate leaning people, and followed a lot of Russian news uncritically, and even had a Soviet idolization phase of my own. A lot of my mindset at the time was this really weird form of libertarianism combined with unbridled contrarianism.
E I feel this can include a lot of people from any perspective. Leftists who think appose NATO more than Russia’s imperialism, Rightist who see the writing on the wall, and think the war should end while Russia is still ahead, to people who associate the increase in costs of living with the war, and simply want it to end no matter what ASAP for their own sake. I feel this could be expanded into several catagories, but then again, everything here is a severe oversimplification.
So are there flaws with this post: absolutely, but I don’t think it was written in bad faith.
I can understand your viewpoint, but I don’t agree with it. I think you’re missing the signs that this was written to promote a right-wing narrative about leftists.
You say you think it’s written by a “well-meaning liberal perspective,” but none of the things you mention point to it being a liberal’s perspective, except for the implication that you are a well-meaning liberal and thus you identify with it. Coming from a liberal who interacts with mostly liberal people, and who has been friends with people on the left and right and talked philosophy with both: A, B, and E are just not written from the normal perspective of a left-leaning person.
By your explanation, you clearly understand the C and D roles best, which are the right-wing descriptions. Could it be that you are projecting a liberal perspective on something that is clearly a right-wing narrative because you are used to seeing this narrative, despite identifying as a liberal now?
You do realize that makes it a right wing perspective right? When will Americans finally figure out that liberals are right wing in the rest of world?
If an antifascist is anyone who opposes fascism, then why couldn’t there be right-wing antifascists?
Communism of any kind is inherently authoritarian. There’s no way around it.
If you have not studied communism, and your main contact with communism is tankies on Lemmy and “communist” dictatorships in history, then I understand why you would think that.
But communists by and large are not tankies, and do not wish for states like the USSR, China, or North Korea. Those people typically identify as Marxist-Leninists (promoted mainly by Stalin after Lenin died), and yep they’re authoritarian, and they’re loud. And, despite the name, Marx himself would disapprove of this ideology for a number of reasons.
Read even just the first paragraph of the Wikipedia articles on ”Communism” and “Communist society.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
Communists want no state; it is effectively a type of anarchist or radically democratic ideology, where the citizens all equally share power through common ownership of industry… the very opposite of authoritarianism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_society
Communism is not an authoritarian philosophy. If you go talk to people in real life who identify as communists, you will tend to find communists as described in these articles. If you look on lemmy.ml, however, you’ll find lots of Marxist-Leninists (tankies) because that’s who the instance was made by… but that’s not really representative of communism as a whole, and many communists find that philosophy repulsive.
My main contact with communism is that I was born and raised in a communist country. Communism IS a 100% authoritarian regime. Allways was, allways will be.
That’s interesting, which country? I’d be willing to bet that the government does not actually describe itself as communist, but instead as a Marxist-Leninist socialist government, because even they know that what they do is not communism.
I’m willing to bet that because most (if not all) “communist” states in the world actually describe themselves as socialist, not communist, following Marxism-Leninism or some variation thereof. As far as I know, all of them do. So, which one are you from?
USSR. All these lefty regimes are 100% totalitarian. The whole premise of Marxism and variations is to remove individual rights and freedoms. It doesn’t matter how you spin it.
Question: have you ever read the Communist Manifesto?
I read Marx manifesto, yes.
But it is apparent from any reading of the Communist Manifesto that the premise of Marxism is not to remove individual rights and freedoms, regardless of how you think it works out in practice.
Yeah, this is precisely the kind of state I was talking about. Thanks for confirming. I’ve explained twice in responses to you, and you haven’t actually addressed my points, so maybe you don’t understand what I’m saying.
If you think Marxism-Leninism actually represents what Marx laid out as communism, you are mistaken. Marxism-Leninism was just Stalin-branded autocratic socialism—Marx had no say in the name. Neither did Lenin, for that matter, unless I’m forgetting my history. This, again, is precisely what I was talking about.
I think you should go back and read my original comment and see that the whole point was to unravel the actual spin in this image. No matter how you spin it, this meme places an unwarranted amount of blame on Western leftists while describing each label inaccurately and with a traditionally right-wing slant.
Just read the fucking manifesto already!
I’m not even a communist, but I have, actually, and you clearly haven’t. Doesn’t take much to understand the philosophy.
I downvoted you because I don’t think you are being objective and instead are bringing your own prejudices and preconceptions to your analysis. Basically you are guilty of the same kinds of bias that you accuse OP of.
Of course I’m biased. Everyone is. But am I wrong? My accusation was not that OP is biased, but that the meme itself was trying to secretly promote a right-wing narrative. I understand if you don’t trust me as a biased observer, but you can still read my points and decide whether they are factually correct or not.
If you think I’ve made an error, feel free to respond with a correction. I’m not here to flame anyone, just to point out that I see a vehicle for disinformation. I respect many philosophies on both the left and the right, even if I disagree with them, but regardless of “sides” everyone deserves to make informed decisions arrived at by their own reasoning. When you are manipulated without your knowledge, your ability to reason properly is taken away from you.
My downvote was based on the fact that you didn’t make your bias clear and instead presented your opinion as fact. Maybe that’s a “me” problem as I have a background in journalism and by formal training dislike any statement of opinion that is not specifically qualified as such.
Though I don’t agree with your position, I did not downvote you on that basis and never would unless I thought you were promulgating objectively dangerous or stupid ideas.
Sorry, would you please point out which statements in my comment you feel are opinion and not fact?
Sure. Virtually all of them.
So, not interested in discussing?
Correct.