• Yliaster
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    3 days ago

    People have been theorizing (or fantasizing, rather) about the supposed collapse of the system since 1850, thinking it was soon then.

    Guess it’s soon enough for us to not see it in this lifetime either.

    Aka, worthless.

    • UnderpantsWeevil
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      3 days ago

      It’s collapsed a bunch of times.

      The sudden, often arbitrary, and devastating failures make up much of the case for why the system is bad.

      • Yliaster
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        3 days ago

        Is the system bad? Sure.

        Will a good system finally show up? Doubt.

        Those collapses you mentioned haven’t lead to a worthwhile system, have they?

        Collapse is meaningless on its own.

        • UnderpantsWeevil
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          3 days ago

          Will a good system finally show up? Doubt.

          People try new things. Sometimes those things work.

          The problem isn’t that ideas are floated and failed. It’s that systems calcify around people in privileged positions.

          Those collapses you mentioned haven’t lead to a worthwhile system, have they?

          Economic models in 2026 are far more advanced and improved than ones from 1626

          • Yliaster
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            2 days ago

            That tendency of systems is precisely why I’m skeptical of any real systemic change to occur.

            Advanced and improved are vague terms. 1) Are the systems today better for the common man? And if so, how? 2) If it takes 400 years, then it’s largely irrelevant to anyone concerned with systemic change within their own lifetime.

            • UnderpantsWeevil
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              2 days ago

              That tendency of systems is precisely why I’m skeptical of any real systemic change to occur.

              Systems endure until they don’t. A system with a long history tends to have a more entrenched position and a wider base of supporters.

              Advanced and improved are vague terms

              If you want a full categorical break down of 400 years of economic plans and conglomerated practices, I might point you to your local university and advise you to pick up any number of lectures on the subject.

              But if you’re just going to “Nuh-uh” everything since the Dutch East India Company incorporated…

              • Yliaster
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                17 hours ago

                Systems endure until they don’t. A system with a long history tends to have a more entrenched position and a wider base of supporters.

                Or rather, until they give way to another system that exploits the masses for the elite. In reality, systemic change in the sense of mass exploitation ending has never occured in history. It was there through the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, and even today in the 21st century.

                The form it takes changing is irrelevant since the exploitation of masses itself never stopped.

                It doesn’t matter if the name it’s given or how it happens changes.

                If you want a full categorical break down of 400 years of economic plans and conglomerated practices, I might point you to your local university and advise you to pick up any number of lectures on the subject.

                But if you’re just going to “Nuh-uh” everything since the Dutch East India Company incorporated…

                What a roundabout non-answer.

                Asking you to specify how the systems have improved specifically w.r.t. the common man (which I don’t believe they have) doesn’t require university lectures if you had a concrete answer.

                I’m not “nuh-uh”-ing everything, I’m looking for reason for common beliefs people hold that, as far as I’ve seen so far, have been nothing but just vibes and values. In reality, those claims (eg: “systemic change is real and has happened!”) have been historically inaccurate and anachronistic, if not simply straight-up false.

                • UnderpantsWeevil
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                  16 hours ago

                  In reality, systemic change in the sense of mass exploitation ending has never occured in history.

                  That requires a very slanted and cynical view of history. “Don’t trust anyone, they’re all just trying to oppress you. You should be trying to oppress them instead.” is the sort of toxic machismo that gets you Hegseth and Rubio butchering people the globe over while liberals shrug in apathy.

                  The form it takes changing is irrelevant

                  Sure, that’s the propaganda you get from fascist media. Ultra-nationalism is rooted in the belief that we’re in a perpetual race war and the only open question is whether your race is ascendent. Internationalism is fake. Egalitarian political movements are (((controlled))) from the shadows. Intersectionality is impossible. Only brutal totalitarian hierarchy has ever existed - can ever exist - so you might as well submit to the boot on your neck with the promise that you’ll have the opportunity to stomp someone else’s neck down the road.

                  What a roundabout non-answer.

                  You’ve pickled your brain on fascist ideology so badly that you’ve lost the ability to read anything you disagree with.

    • ddplf@szmer.info
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      3 days ago

      Ever since 1850? Geee, just two years after the Revolutions of 1848, I guess the peoples should never be appeased because they’ll just want more and more!

      • Yliaster
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        3 days ago

        I wasn’t talking about the US 🤦

        It’s stupid how people just assume it’s america if you don’t specify.

        • ddplf@szmer.info
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          3 days ago

          What the fuck are you talking about? Spring of Nations didn’t spread to the US in the slightest.

          • Yliaster
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            3 days ago

            Then what are you talking about?

            As for me, I’m referring to Marx and communist critiques of capitalism that have spanned several European countries in its inception which were then expanded by 20th century and modern communists who repeatedly said that collapse was imminent and inevitable.

            That’s been a consistent theme that hasn’t changed since around 1850.

            People keep going “oh yeah, it’s really gonna collapse this time! There’s gonna be real good change soon!” Nope. Bs. Historically inaccurate.

            • ddplf@szmer.info
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              3 days ago

              Then what are you talking about?

              I’m running out of names for that advent, so here’s the last one, I’m sorry but you’re just too semantically demanding. So here goes - Springtime of the Peoples

              As for the rest. Are you seriously claiming that there were no uprisings or revolutions since 1850? Brother, I’m sure you can do some better research.

              Or are you looking for something more spectacular, the full-blown worldwide revolution, and anything smaller than that is just too futile for your taste.

              • Yliaster
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                2 days ago

                Are you seriously claiming that there were no uprisings or revolutions since 1850?

                That’s not my claim at all.

                My claim is that systemic change hasn’t occured.

                It doesn’t matter if “uprisings” or “revolutions” occur if they don’t lead to systemic change. For example, the french revolution lead to a dictatorship. Which isn’t a win.

                None of these “revolutions” have lead to any real systemic change. Key word: systemic. Not just measly concessions like “women can vote now” or "workers can get the weekend ‘off’ ".

                Or are you looking for something more spectacular, the full-blown worldwide revolution, and anything smaller than that is just too futile for your taste.

                It doesn’t need to be global, no. But it must lead to lasting, relevant systemic change in favour of the common man, yes.