which takes in nutrients, processes them to support itself, and expells waste products.
Is fire alive? it takes in nutrients (Hydro carbons+oxygens), reacts them to support itself, and expells waste products (CO2+water), in fact, that’s the same input and output as many organisms. Is fire a living organisms?
you missed growth (also fire)
and reproduction (also fire, but also problematic as it means a single rabbit isn’t alive but a couple are)
BTW, not an appeal to authority, just a notice that I might know what I’m talking about. I have a PhD in biology.
there are more interesting candidates for life definition, Dawkins considered that maybe the question is a waste of time and what matters is the genetic unit, “living things” are just things that spread genetic material.
Others theories are based on chaos theory, thermodynamic cascades,matter/energy waves…
Fire can be thought of as alive, in a sense. I’d hesitate to say it isn’t. But realy, it’s more accurately a chain reaction. Fire isn’t a ‘thing’, it’s not a system of repeatitively interacting parts. That said, I have no problem extending the label “Life” to non-biological systems. A machine that can maintain and repair itself is certainly alive.
Reproduction also isn’t necessary. DNA or other form of heritable instructions aren’t necessary. Muels and Ligers are genetic dead ends, but very much alive themselves.
and we aren’t a thing, we replace our matter constantly, hence the matter wave idea.
The point is that basically every definition will fail in some edge cases.
and it ends up being more about philosophy than biology,
the whole point is that there’s no biological definition for life. we have one for medical context (brain dead, but mostly depending if it can be reversed, as soon as/if we figure how to resuscitate a brain dead person, we will have another threshold for the definition).
I think there’s a really good infinite monkey cage episode about this, one of their best episodes, I think it’s “what is death” from series 8. not 100% sure. but it’s a great listen anyways
we aren’t a thing, we replace our matter constantly
Yes, as parts wear out they are replaced, but they aren’t single use. That is the nature of a system. As I said, a system can be considered a thing. Fire is not a thing, because it is not a system of reusable parts that interact with each other multiple times. It’s better described as a chemical chain reaction. Every molecule is used exactly once. However the illusion of continuity of the flame, can be useful at times to be considered alive. But it’s certainly not the most accurate label for fire.
it ends up being more about philosophy than biology, […] there’s no biological definition for life.
Agreed. Again, my definition has nothing to do with biology. Mechanical systems might be able to perform the actions of life. Even some software may be considered alive within it’s environment.
The issue at hand anyway, isn’t the line (zone really) between life and death, but the definition of a corpse. To me that seems pretty clearly the point when a system stops working to maintain itself, stops fighting entropy. The remaining structure of the system then starts to break down, falls apart into it’s constituent pieces. Corpse-ing is the process that starts, when the process of dying ends.
Is fire alive? it takes in nutrients (Hydro carbons+oxygens), reacts them to support itself, and expells waste products (CO2+water), in fact, that’s the same input and output as many organisms. Is fire a living organisms?
you missed growth (also fire)
and reproduction (also fire, but also problematic as it means a single rabbit isn’t alive but a couple are)
BTW, not an appeal to authority, just a notice that I might know what I’m talking about. I have a PhD in biology.
there are more interesting candidates for life definition, Dawkins considered that maybe the question is a waste of time and what matters is the genetic unit, “living things” are just things that spread genetic material.
Others theories are based on chaos theory, thermodynamic cascades,matter/energy waves…
Fire can be thought of as alive, in a sense. I’d hesitate to say it isn’t. But realy, it’s more accurately a chain reaction. Fire isn’t a ‘thing’, it’s not a system of repeatitively interacting parts. That said, I have no problem extending the label “Life” to non-biological systems. A machine that can maintain and repair itself is certainly alive.
Reproduction also isn’t necessary. DNA or other form of heritable instructions aren’t necessary. Muels and Ligers are genetic dead ends, but very much alive themselves.
fire, isn’t alive. it isn’t biologically.
and we aren’t a thing, we replace our matter constantly, hence the matter wave idea.
The point is that basically every definition will fail in some edge cases.
and it ends up being more about philosophy than biology,
the whole point is that there’s no biological definition for life. we have one for medical context (brain dead, but mostly depending if it can be reversed, as soon as/if we figure how to resuscitate a brain dead person, we will have another threshold for the definition).
I think there’s a really good infinite monkey cage episode about this, one of their best episodes, I think it’s “what is death” from series 8. not 100% sure. but it’s a great listen anyways
As I said, life is unrelated to biology.
Yes, as parts wear out they are replaced, but they aren’t single use. That is the nature of a system. As I said, a system can be considered a thing. Fire is not a thing, because it is not a system of reusable parts that interact with each other multiple times. It’s better described as a chemical chain reaction. Every molecule is used exactly once. However the illusion of continuity of the flame, can be useful at times to be considered alive. But it’s certainly not the most accurate label for fire.
Agreed. Again, my definition has nothing to do with biology. Mechanical systems might be able to perform the actions of life. Even some software may be considered alive within it’s environment.
The issue at hand anyway, isn’t the line (zone really) between life and death, but the definition of a corpse. To me that seems pretty clearly the point when a system stops working to maintain itself, stops fighting entropy. The remaining structure of the system then starts to break down, falls apart into it’s constituent pieces. Corpse-ing is the process that starts, when the process of dying ends.