I didn’t say communism is non-discriminatory. Your willingness to jump from “racism” to “discrimination” demonstrates you don’t understand the topic at all.
What about China and The Uyghurs?
China absolutely has a problem with Han supremacy and assimilated European racism, no doubt. But the situation with Uyghurs is not evidence of it. The situation with the Uyghurs, quite literally, is only framed as an Islamophobic “racism” problem by the white supremacist Islamophobic West. When the Arab League surveyed the entire situation, not only did they not find any evidence of Islamophobia, they actively approved of the Chinese program. Why?
Because the problem in Xinjiang is the problem of manufactured extremism. Manufactured by whom? The US and UK primarily. They have a decades long history of training, arming, and even fomenting Islamic extremism in the entire region (go look at where exactly Xinjiang is on a map). Remember the Mujahideen? Remember how the US created al-Qaeda? Remember how the current president of Syria had a huge bounty on his head for being a literal head-chopper in ISIS but then it turns out he’s been actively working with the US military intelligence apparatus for at least 7 years? Yeah, so the US has been continuing their 50-year program of creating terrorist extremists and they were doing it in Xinjiang with the Uyghur community. The US and UK have built a substantial program of reinterpreting Islam to justify terrorism and spreading that in isolated and economically under-developed Islamic communities to create terrorist cells, very much like what the US did with Evangelical Christians right here in the USA (and most terrorist attacks in the US are from white Christian who were radicalized, even if tangentially, by these programs).
So again, why did the Arab League approve of China’s program in Xinjiang? Because it was actually effective. The number of terrorist attacks in Xinjiang plummeted following China’s implementation of their program. Economic opportunity was expanded, education, literacy, and health outcomes all skyrocketed. Uyghur women in Xinjiang had massively expanded academic, economic, and family-planning opportunities. It’s honestly a huge achievement, and one that the Arab League would be highly interested in understanding - the first ever deradicalization program aimed at Muslims radicalized by the decades-long Western radicalization program.
So, what about China and the Uyghurs? Not a racism thing. Not a discrimination thing. Not a Han supremacy thing. It’s an anti-terrorism program aimed at threading the needle, maintaining the Xinjiang autonomous region while neutralizing the radicalization threat from the West. And it’s working, not just well, extremely well, and the Uyghurs in Xinjiang every year are posting continued population growth, positive academic growth, positive economic growth, and they’re all still practicing Islam.
Again Jewish people in Russia experienced lots of racism from the Russian people.
100%! Even members of the Red Army went rogue and did pogroms against Jews in Russia. Absolutely happened, no contest. But they were cut from the Party because the Party itself understood that antisemitism was not something that would build a healthy society.
China : It’s an anti-terrorism program. Yeah so is what’s going on in Israel lol.
LOL. I love that your picture is a tight shot, forced perspective on a single thing with absolutely zero context. We can’t tell if we’re inside or outside the fence in that picture. It’s truly the most artful expression of your position.
As for Stalin not getting cut from the party, we have someone claiming that the party would have committed pogroms against the Jews except that Stalin died before they could do it, so I guess it’s fair game to say that they would have cut him from the party but he died before they could do it.
Anyway, it’s kind of difficult to cut the commander-in-chief who defeated the Nazis and sacked Berlin, even if in the last 5 his progressive brain disease coupled with fighting the most insidious racist group in the world led him to take actions against Jewish institutions because he believed (correctly) that the international Zionist movement was a reactionary bourgeois movement aligned with Western super powers and hostile to communism
How can you say it wasn’t the fault of the communist when the communist leaders and communist people did pogroms?
You are the definition of bad faith.
Listen, the porgroms you are talking about are well documented. They were NOT carried out by the Bolshevik party nor by the Communist Party. They were carried out by the White Army (the Tsarist loyalists), the Ukrainian National Army, “rogue” groups within the Red Army (I’ll get to this in a second), and various Russian peasant militias.
With the exception of the pogroms carried out by the Red Army, NONE of these are pogroms being committed by the communist party. If you can’t admit that, then I don’t know why you expect anyone to respect your positions.
For the pogroms carried about by the Red Army, NONE of them were ordered by the party nor by the top military leadership within the Red Army. They were carried out by literally elements of the military that went rogue and the party, under the leadership of both Lenin and Trotsky held a ZERO TOLERANCE policy regarding anti-semitism and counter-revolutionary violence. They disciplined the soldiers that carried out the pogroms because they were EXPLICITLY NOT THE ORDERS OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY. The soldiers who did it were literally executed.
And then Stalin took power. Not while these pogroms took place. AFTER the pogroms. Stalin took power AFTER the pogroms you’re talking about. And what did Stalin do? He literally created the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee.
I also wouldn’t compare it to US police to prove it isn’t racism.
Again, you’re absolutely arguing in bad faith, deliberately choosing to ignore the actual meaning of my words, which was that the Doctors Plot was incredibly small, was predicated on a specific legal accusation of a criminal conspiracy which was initiated by a specific claim through written testimony of a witness attesting to the criminal conspiracy. It may or may not have been a real criminal conspiracy, and we can argue and debate the use of force in the prosecution of the case, but it’s not like Stalin just woke up one day and said “I wish to slake my bloodlust by killing those I hate the most” nor did the party make a decision to, for example, make a specific ethnicity into a scapegoat for the purposes of creating a nationwide ethnostate, enforce ethnic purity, or rally the Russian people to a national cause. None of these things happened. There was evidence of a criminal conspiracy, of organized crime, and there was a state response.
So back to your question:
How can you say it wasn’t the fault of the communist when the communist leaders and communist people did pogroms?
Because communist leaders did not do pogroms. You’re going to have to provide evidence for your claim. And “communist people” are not a thing. Peasants living under the Tsar that were anti-semitic were the exact same peasants that were anti-semitic when they were now governed by the communist party. The peasants that did pogroms were not “communist people”. They were just anti-semites, and the communist leadership, the party, and all of their power, was used to STOP the anti-semitism and the pogroms. The communists literally executed the leaders of pogroms.
It’s not bad faith. I don’t think communism is inherently bad. I don’t even think it’s worse than capitalism. I’m just saying it hasn’t been great with racism either. Communist countries also kinda suck all the time too. China is a horrible police state. So is America.
It doesn’t look like the problem is capitalism or communism. The problem is tyrants and oligarchs
This is what we call reductionism. China is not “cracking down on Muslims”. The Arab League regularly issues condemnations of the US treatment of Muslims. It has not issued a condemnation of the Chinese treatment of Uyghurs. At a certain point, you’re going to have to start asking yourself why this is the case, and you’re going to have own up to the fact that if you think the Arabs are motivated to stay on China’s good side, look at what happens to Arab countries on the USA’s bad side.
There’s no way around this one. The false equivalency is simply unsustainable in the face of reality
Oh yes China’s murder, rape, and imprisonment is okay because you like them. Also, the Arab League aren’t some human rights organization. Not sure why you focus on them… Other than, that is right, they are in China’s influence.
I get it, China does the right kind of cultural genocide. Their soft understanding hand gently holds the throat of its adversaries until they suffocate. There is no way around this, I am against human rights abuses and you act as an apologist.
What about China and The Uyghurs? This idea that communism is non discriminatory is laughable _
I didn’t say communism is non-discriminatory. Your willingness to jump from “racism” to “discrimination” demonstrates you don’t understand the topic at all.
China absolutely has a problem with Han supremacy and assimilated European racism, no doubt. But the situation with Uyghurs is not evidence of it. The situation with the Uyghurs, quite literally, is only framed as an Islamophobic “racism” problem by the white supremacist Islamophobic West. When the Arab League surveyed the entire situation, not only did they not find any evidence of Islamophobia, they actively approved of the Chinese program. Why?
Because the problem in Xinjiang is the problem of manufactured extremism. Manufactured by whom? The US and UK primarily. They have a decades long history of training, arming, and even fomenting Islamic extremism in the entire region (go look at where exactly Xinjiang is on a map). Remember the Mujahideen? Remember how the US created al-Qaeda? Remember how the current president of Syria had a huge bounty on his head for being a literal head-chopper in ISIS but then it turns out he’s been actively working with the US military intelligence apparatus for at least 7 years? Yeah, so the US has been continuing their 50-year program of creating terrorist extremists and they were doing it in Xinjiang with the Uyghur community. The US and UK have built a substantial program of reinterpreting Islam to justify terrorism and spreading that in isolated and economically under-developed Islamic communities to create terrorist cells, very much like what the US did with Evangelical Christians right here in the USA (and most terrorist attacks in the US are from white Christian who were radicalized, even if tangentially, by these programs).
So again, why did the Arab League approve of China’s program in Xinjiang? Because it was actually effective. The number of terrorist attacks in Xinjiang plummeted following China’s implementation of their program. Economic opportunity was expanded, education, literacy, and health outcomes all skyrocketed. Uyghur women in Xinjiang had massively expanded academic, economic, and family-planning opportunities. It’s honestly a huge achievement, and one that the Arab League would be highly interested in understanding - the first ever deradicalization program aimed at Muslims radicalized by the decades-long Western radicalization program.
So, what about China and the Uyghurs? Not a racism thing. Not a discrimination thing. Not a Han supremacy thing. It’s an anti-terrorism program aimed at threading the needle, maintaining the Xinjiang autonomous region while neutralizing the radicalization threat from the West. And it’s working, not just well, extremely well, and the Uyghurs in Xinjiang every year are posting continued population growth, positive academic growth, positive economic growth, and they’re all still practicing Islam.
Again Jewish people in Russia experienced lots of racism from the Russian people.
China : It’s an anti-terrorism program
Yeah so is what’s going on in Israel lol.
100%! Even members of the Red Army went rogue and did pogroms against Jews in Russia. Absolutely happened, no contest. But they were cut from the Party because the Party itself understood that antisemitism was not something that would build a healthy society.
Stalin wasn’t cut from the party.
LOL. I love that your picture is a tight shot, forced perspective on a single thing with absolutely zero context. We can’t tell if we’re inside or outside the fence in that picture. It’s truly the most artful expression of your position.
As for Stalin not getting cut from the party, we have someone claiming that the party would have committed pogroms against the Jews except that Stalin died before they could do it, so I guess it’s fair game to say that they would have cut him from the party but he died before they could do it.
Anyway, it’s kind of difficult to cut the commander-in-chief who defeated the Nazis and sacked Berlin, even if in the last 5 his progressive brain disease coupled with fighting the most insidious racist group in the world led him to take actions against Jewish institutions because he believed (correctly) that the international Zionist movement was a reactionary bourgeois movement aligned with Western super powers and hostile to communism
Btw you absolutely can tell in this picture you’re outside the prison. Razor wire goes on the inside.
“claiming that the party would have committed pogroms against the Jews except that Stalin died”
No no no. You keep getting that completely wrong. There were many many pogroms in Russia. They happened. Jews were tortured and killed.
The only thing Stalin DIDNT finish before he died was complete elimination of the Jewish people in Russia.
The pograms happened many times.
You said that wasn’t the communists faults.
I replied with essentially “the Soviet people committed pograms, the Soviet leader also ordered pogroms.
How can you say it wasn’t the fault of the communist when the communist leaders and communist people did pogroms?
I also wouldn’t compare it to US police to prove it isn’t racism.
You are the definition of bad faith.
Listen, the porgroms you are talking about are well documented. They were NOT carried out by the Bolshevik party nor by the Communist Party. They were carried out by the White Army (the Tsarist loyalists), the Ukrainian National Army, “rogue” groups within the Red Army (I’ll get to this in a second), and various Russian peasant militias.
With the exception of the pogroms carried out by the Red Army, NONE of these are pogroms being committed by the communist party. If you can’t admit that, then I don’t know why you expect anyone to respect your positions.
For the pogroms carried about by the Red Army, NONE of them were ordered by the party nor by the top military leadership within the Red Army. They were carried out by literally elements of the military that went rogue and the party, under the leadership of both Lenin and Trotsky held a ZERO TOLERANCE policy regarding anti-semitism and counter-revolutionary violence. They disciplined the soldiers that carried out the pogroms because they were EXPLICITLY NOT THE ORDERS OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY. The soldiers who did it were literally executed.
And then Stalin took power. Not while these pogroms took place. AFTER the pogroms. Stalin took power AFTER the pogroms you’re talking about. And what did Stalin do? He literally created the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee.
Again, you’re absolutely arguing in bad faith, deliberately choosing to ignore the actual meaning of my words, which was that the Doctors Plot was incredibly small, was predicated on a specific legal accusation of a criminal conspiracy which was initiated by a specific claim through written testimony of a witness attesting to the criminal conspiracy. It may or may not have been a real criminal conspiracy, and we can argue and debate the use of force in the prosecution of the case, but it’s not like Stalin just woke up one day and said “I wish to slake my bloodlust by killing those I hate the most” nor did the party make a decision to, for example, make a specific ethnicity into a scapegoat for the purposes of creating a nationwide ethnostate, enforce ethnic purity, or rally the Russian people to a national cause. None of these things happened. There was evidence of a criminal conspiracy, of organized crime, and there was a state response.
So back to your question:
Because communist leaders did not do pogroms. You’re going to have to provide evidence for your claim. And “communist people” are not a thing. Peasants living under the Tsar that were anti-semitic were the exact same peasants that were anti-semitic when they were now governed by the communist party. The peasants that did pogroms were not “communist people”. They were just anti-semites, and the communist leadership, the party, and all of their power, was used to STOP the anti-semitism and the pogroms. The communists literally executed the leaders of pogroms.
Joseph Stalin systematically destroyed the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee. He killed them.
It’s not bad faith. I don’t think communism is inherently bad. I don’t even think it’s worse than capitalism. I’m just saying it hasn’t been great with racism either. Communist countries also kinda suck all the time too. China is a horrible police state. So is America.
It doesn’t look like the problem is capitalism or communism. The problem is tyrants and oligarchs
That was some serious propaganda. China cracks down on Muslims = Good. The US = Bad.
Another human rights abuser and apologist.
This is what we call reductionism. China is not “cracking down on Muslims”. The Arab League regularly issues condemnations of the US treatment of Muslims. It has not issued a condemnation of the Chinese treatment of Uyghurs. At a certain point, you’re going to have to start asking yourself why this is the case, and you’re going to have own up to the fact that if you think the Arabs are motivated to stay on China’s good side, look at what happens to Arab countries on the USA’s bad side.
There’s no way around this one. The false equivalency is simply unsustainable in the face of reality
Oh yes China’s murder, rape, and imprisonment is okay because you like them. Also, the Arab League aren’t some human rights organization. Not sure why you focus on them… Other than, that is right, they are in China’s influence.
I get it, China does the right kind of cultural genocide. Their soft understanding hand gently holds the throat of its adversaries until they suffocate. There is no way around this, I am against human rights abuses and you act as an apologist.