Which Native Americans historically have said they used to hunt them? Mammoths went extinct in the USA around 12000 years ago, so this story doesn’t ring true. Oral history just does not survive that long
There’s a debate as to whether giant animals from Native American folklore are a warped cultural retention of extinct megafauna, sure.
To be clear, Native Americans did hunt Mammoths, and they have also been oppressed and culturally maligned. No disagreement there
But I’m very much questioning that Native Americans outside of modern academic contexts have claimed knowledge of what their tribes hunted in 10,000 BC
There are plenty of examples of oral history surviving far longer. The oldest verified oral information is 80100kyr. There were also plenty of examples of indigenous Americans passing down written history. Then, you are throwing around numbers like 10,000 and 12,000 directly under an article talking about mammoths being in North America 5000 years ago. You’re all over the place.
And this is the same kind of stuff I was talking about in my other comment. You’re saying ‘oh sure they were strong and competent hunters, but I can’t believe they remembered things or kept a history.’
Okay first of all I’m saying I can’t believe any culture or people anywhere ever has a detailed history of their ancestral habits 12,000 years ago, at least prior to modern anthropology. It’s not a slight on Native Americans specifically.
For context, the Epic of Gilgamesh from Mesopotamia, generally regarded as the world’s oldest surviving literature, is 4,000 years old.
I would genuinely love to see a source about this 80,000 year old oral history. I admit to being sceptical.
Secondly, it’s not under an article about Mammoths existing 5,000 years ago. It’s under a meme. A wrong meme.
I’ve thrown out 1 number, not 2. 12,000 years ago, or 10,000 BC. This is the same. It’s also when Mammoths went extinct. I am consistent on this.
Yes 12kya and 10k bc are the same thing my bad. When it comes to that most ancient of ancient stories, it’s the story of the formation of Budj Bim, and it’s closer to 40kya not 80.
There are plenty of younger stories (7-12kya) from the Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, as well. These people are not outliers. They were just able to carry these stories long enough through colonization that they made it to a point where some colonized folks cared enough to investigate them.
Edit: Now that I’ve had a minute to refresh my mind, it looks like I was calling the average on two different stories. There is another story that tells of verifiable star movements from 100kya. Budj Bim was the oldest one that could verifiably be used as evidence of occupation of Australia.
In theory you would think they could understand, but the image of “there was nothing here” and “the indigenous people were simple hunter gatherers incapable of much strategy or forethought” is very very strong even today.
But also, I never said helpless foragers. The messaging on Americas indigenous peoples is that they are “strong and have potential” but that they were “naturally dominated by superior culture and knowledge”. That they were here doing mostly nothing with all this land, and so it’s right that it was taken. The saying goes “kill the Indian, save the man.”
Were you taught about continent spanning cultures and trade, heavy building, cities, intercontinental trade, farming, etc? Were you taught that the forests were purposefully grown, the herds intentionally tended, or just that it was an Eden and the strong people lived in it? Do you know anything of the languages or knowledge of the specific people who’s land you are on?
And no one believed the native Americans who said they used to hunt them. Then they didn’t believe they actually saw them, only bones.
Then finally bones with tool marks were found. So now they don’t believe native Americans hunted them, only scavenged dead bodies…
Which Native Americans historically have said they used to hunt them? Mammoths went extinct in the USA around 12000 years ago, so this story doesn’t ring true. Oral history just does not survive that long
There’s a debate as to whether giant animals from Native American folklore are a warped cultural retention of extinct megafauna, sure.
To be clear, Native Americans did hunt Mammoths, and they have also been oppressed and culturally maligned. No disagreement there
But I’m very much questioning that Native Americans outside of modern academic contexts have claimed knowledge of what their tribes hunted in 10,000 BC
There are plenty of examples of oral history surviving far longer. The oldest verified oral information is
80100kyr. There were also plenty of examples of indigenous Americans passing down written history. Then, you are throwing around numbers like 10,000 and 12,000 directly under an article talking about mammoths being in North America 5000 years ago. You’re all over the place.And this is the same kind of stuff I was talking about in my other comment. You’re saying ‘oh sure they were strong and competent hunters, but I can’t believe they remembered things or kept a history.’
Okay first of all I’m saying I can’t believe any culture or people anywhere ever has a detailed history of their ancestral habits 12,000 years ago, at least prior to modern anthropology. It’s not a slight on Native Americans specifically.
For context, the Epic of Gilgamesh from Mesopotamia, generally regarded as the world’s oldest surviving literature, is 4,000 years old.
I would genuinely love to see a source about this 80,000 year old oral history. I admit to being sceptical.
Secondly, it’s not under an article about Mammoths existing 5,000 years ago. It’s under a meme. A wrong meme.
I’ve thrown out 1 number, not 2. 12,000 years ago, or 10,000 BC. This is the same. It’s also when Mammoths went extinct. I am consistent on this.
Yes 12kya and 10k bc are the same thing my bad. When it comes to that most ancient of ancient stories, it’s the story of the formation of Budj Bim, and it’s closer to 40kya not 80.
There are plenty of younger stories (7-12kya) from the Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, as well. These people are not outliers. They were just able to carry these stories long enough through colonization that they made it to a point where some colonized folks cared enough to investigate them.
Edit: Now that I’ve had a minute to refresh my mind, it looks like I was calling the average on two different stories. There is another story that tells of verifiable star movements from 100kya. Budj Bim was the oldest one that could verifiably be used as evidence of occupation of Australia.
https://theconversation.com/the-worlds-oldest-story-astronomers-say-global-myths-about-seven-sisters-stars-may-reach-back-100-000-years-151568
They hunted herds of bison, surely anthropologists would understand that they could handle a single Mammoth.
In theory you would think they could understand, but the image of “there was nothing here” and “the indigenous people were simple hunter gatherers incapable of much strategy or forethought” is very very strong even today.
Do people really think that? In school, we were never taught Native Americans were helpless foragers; quite the opposite.
Yes.
But also, I never said helpless foragers. The messaging on Americas indigenous peoples is that they are “strong and have potential” but that they were “naturally dominated by superior culture and knowledge”. That they were here doing mostly nothing with all this land, and so it’s right that it was taken. The saying goes “kill the Indian, save the man.”
Were you taught about continent spanning cultures and trade, heavy building, cities, intercontinental trade, farming, etc? Were you taught that the forests were purposefully grown, the herds intentionally tended, or just that it was an Eden and the strong people lived in it? Do you know anything of the languages or knowledge of the specific people who’s land you are on?