Your desire to have a ruling party and then “all the others” is telling. Managers should absolutely be elected by the workers. Not all workers are lazy - in fact 20% of the employees create 80% of the issues. The other majority of folks want to work and want to be a part of a team. It’s how democracy works too - one of the people is voted on by all the others to be in charge for a short time. This arrangement doesn’t seem to have resulted in any democracy being less productive than a more authoritative state. In fact, looking at the least economically productive states, all of them are dictatorships where the people DON’T vote for a leader. They are assigned one and the people have to hope they aren’t lazy, corrupt, or self serving. The people don’t get a voice - just like your ideal work environment.
It’s wild that the parallel of democracy was brought up too and you also then say democracy ain’t feasible. It’s like admitting to being a fascist without saying the words - the belief that people can’t be trusted is there and all that needs to be done to capitalize on that belief is an antagonist culture or people.
the practice you are claiming as essential to communism is just the result of authoritarians and self-proclaimed vanguardists placing party above people in a self-perpetuating class-based heirarchy antithetical to communism (see: Marxist/leninism under Stalin)
Your desire to have a ruling party and then “all the others” is telling.
At no point did I say I desired this. If Socialism succeeds, then the ruling party will be socialist. This is a description, not a prescription. What do you mean by “all the others”? I never said that, and I’d like to know what you think I was getting at.
Managers should absolutely be elected by the workers.
Maybe? Like I said, I’m not sure this is true. I also said it doesn’t matter if you’re a capitalist or a socialist or somewhere in between, this part of the argument is very limited in scope, and I’m pretty open to talking about it if you engage in good faith.
Not all workers are lazy - in fact 20% of the employees create 80% of the issues.
I didn’t say all employees are lazy, in fact this only supports my point if 20% of employees are lazy because there’s a multitude of other reasons, and this 20% would not contribute positively to electing the right person. I’ll elaborate on an example I gave that you ignored: A lot of managers have a lot of paperwork. Managers are often negotiating contracts. Much of these operations are handled without an employee’s knowledge. What the employee sees is how the manager treats them. This is important, yes, which is why it’s great when the employee has an avenue to take issue with their employer about how managers treat them. But, they have no scope of what the rest of the job is outside of their immediate personal interactions, so you can’t expect them to elect the right manager if their scope is so limited on what the job actually is.
The people don’t get a voice - just like your ideal work environment.
I’m not advocating for state level dictatorship. I’m against a leader or leading party having ruling authority over my work environment, which is why I’m both against socialism and dictatorship.
It’s wild that the parallel of democracy was brought up too and you also then say democracy ain’t feasible.
I literally didn’t bring up democracy, you did.
It’s like admitting to being a fascist without saying the words
Fascism is the fusion of corporation and state to achieve totalitarian control of a nation. Everything I said would suggest that I would prefer a reduction of the state, and, even though I didn’t mention anything about corporations, you could infer that I don’t like them either given that I don’t like collective control. I am pro private, which is not the same thing as pro corporatism and it certainly isn’t the same thing as pro fascist
the belief that people can’t be trusted is there and all that needs to be done to capitalize on that belief is an antagonist culture or people
This is actually a common feature of socialism. Marx wanted to unit the people against the bourgeoisie. Mao also had the bourgeoisie, but also the imperialists and nationalists.
I could say the same to you as well. It seems like you believe a private business owner can’t be trusted to make informed decisions about who he should be managing aspects of his business. Why? Where does this inherent distrust come from? Mine isn’t distrust, I happen to believe the business owner is most capable of making those choices in an informed way - generally speaking. It makes no sense to levy that onto the workers in favor of the business owner, I think the onus is on you to show me why. By suggesting a private business owner shouldn’t be making that choice, you’re the only one assuming that people are anything but a mixed bag
Your desire to have a ruling party and then “all the others” is telling. Managers should absolutely be elected by the workers. Not all workers are lazy - in fact 20% of the employees create 80% of the issues. The other majority of folks want to work and want to be a part of a team. It’s how democracy works too - one of the people is voted on by all the others to be in charge for a short time. This arrangement doesn’t seem to have resulted in any democracy being less productive than a more authoritative state. In fact, looking at the least economically productive states, all of them are dictatorships where the people DON’T vote for a leader. They are assigned one and the people have to hope they aren’t lazy, corrupt, or self serving. The people don’t get a voice - just like your ideal work environment.
It’s wild that the parallel of democracy was brought up too and you also then say democracy ain’t feasible. It’s like admitting to being a fascist without saying the words - the belief that people can’t be trusted is there and all that needs to be done to capitalize on that belief is an antagonist culture or people.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_centralism
the practice you are claiming as essential to communism is just the result of authoritarians and self-proclaimed vanguardists placing party above people in a self-perpetuating class-based heirarchy antithetical to communism (see: Marxist/leninism under Stalin)
At no point did I say I desired this. If Socialism succeeds, then the ruling party will be socialist. This is a description, not a prescription. What do you mean by “all the others”? I never said that, and I’d like to know what you think I was getting at.
Maybe? Like I said, I’m not sure this is true. I also said it doesn’t matter if you’re a capitalist or a socialist or somewhere in between, this part of the argument is very limited in scope, and I’m pretty open to talking about it if you engage in good faith.
I didn’t say all employees are lazy, in fact this only supports my point if 20% of employees are lazy because there’s a multitude of other reasons, and this 20% would not contribute positively to electing the right person. I’ll elaborate on an example I gave that you ignored: A lot of managers have a lot of paperwork. Managers are often negotiating contracts. Much of these operations are handled without an employee’s knowledge. What the employee sees is how the manager treats them. This is important, yes, which is why it’s great when the employee has an avenue to take issue with their employer about how managers treat them. But, they have no scope of what the rest of the job is outside of their immediate personal interactions, so you can’t expect them to elect the right manager if their scope is so limited on what the job actually is.
I’m not advocating for state level dictatorship. I’m against a leader or leading party having ruling authority over my work environment, which is why I’m both against socialism and dictatorship.
I literally didn’t bring up democracy, you did.
Fascism is the fusion of corporation and state to achieve totalitarian control of a nation. Everything I said would suggest that I would prefer a reduction of the state, and, even though I didn’t mention anything about corporations, you could infer that I don’t like them either given that I don’t like collective control. I am pro private, which is not the same thing as pro corporatism and it certainly isn’t the same thing as pro fascist
This is actually a common feature of socialism. Marx wanted to unit the people against the bourgeoisie. Mao also had the bourgeoisie, but also the imperialists and nationalists.
I could say the same to you as well. It seems like you believe a private business owner can’t be trusted to make informed decisions about who he should be managing aspects of his business. Why? Where does this inherent distrust come from? Mine isn’t distrust, I happen to believe the business owner is most capable of making those choices in an informed way - generally speaking. It makes no sense to levy that onto the workers in favor of the business owner, I think the onus is on you to show me why. By suggesting a private business owner shouldn’t be making that choice, you’re the only one assuming that people are anything but a mixed bag