You’re basically saying that human culture doesn’t exist. We can foster a culture around sustainability, just like we have previously fostered a culture around greed and excess. Apathy and trying to minimize nudges towards sustainability only support the status quo.
Go for it - foster a culture of sustainability. That’s not a bad thing, it’s just inadequate.
Do you think that’ll deliver the change we need, dramatically shifting the behaviour of corporations and billions of people before we’re out of time, or do you think that pushing those that set the rules of our society to force/motivate the corporations might do a more effective job?
You’re talking about fundamentally breaking capitalism, which I’m all for, but to imagine that those holding the wealth, and by extension, the power will be influenced to abandon the profit motive by some flowery language rather than pushing back against you to the greatest extent possible is magical thinking. You need the greater power of the government to force that change on them.
Seems like we’re stuck in a loop here then. I think you need an engaged populace first to build momentum around political and societal solutions. Which society do you think will force the government to actually solve the problem - a bunch of soft apathetic people blaming everyone else, or a society that at its core actually values sustainability and lives it on a personal level? Pretty sure you know the answer.
I actually think we broadly agree - my point is that the answer isn’t to just recycle harder at the individual level, or even to get members of your community to do the same (though it’s certainly a good thing to do) - the real change comes from the push for systemic change that’ll affect both the populace broadly, and corporations. Yes - the most effective way to do that is to build a community of people that are all pushing in the same direction - lobbying for policy/party changes in government, pushing companies to be better, etc.
Again, my views are a product of looking where the biggest contributions to the problem come from, and the changes where we can move the needle the most. A bunch of individuals changing is good, a bunch of individuals changing the government to change the whole state/country/corporate regulations is far better.
Anything but individual action is magic and flowery language. A system, a group, a corporation, an institution is made of individuals. How does ANY action start if not initiated by individuals? I will concede that cleaning up your own behavior may not move the needle much, but changing “the system” still requires individuals to take actions. What are you waiting for? Some magical hive mind to fix things?
You’ve gone from strawmaning me to ad-hom purity testing, asking me to make non-falsifiable statements you could just dismiss as bullshit. Why be so dishonest when the fate of our civilisation is at stake? Why not acknowledge there’s a point here and take it on board instead? Make yourself more effective?
At what point did I suggest you weren’t trying? I’m pointing to the most effective, necessary course of action if things are going to meaningfully change. I’m not sure why you’re getting so defensive that you’d be so dishonest.
All I’ve done is suggest that individual action is important along with systemic change and you’ve done nothing but get on my case and label me. It’s not one or the other. This sort of binary thinking is the stupidity that is driving this world over the edge.
In any case, you claim that systemic change is the way. Please tell me how you are working on that. Let me sit down and strap in…
You’re basically saying that human culture doesn’t exist. We can foster a culture around sustainability, just like we have previously fostered a culture around greed and excess. Apathy and trying to minimize nudges towards sustainability only support the status quo.
I’m what now?
Go for it - foster a culture of sustainability. That’s not a bad thing, it’s just inadequate.
Do you think that’ll deliver the change we need, dramatically shifting the behaviour of corporations and billions of people before we’re out of time, or do you think that pushing those that set the rules of our society to force/motivate the corporations might do a more effective job?
You’re talking about fundamentally breaking capitalism, which I’m all for, but to imagine that those holding the wealth, and by extension, the power will be influenced to abandon the profit motive by some flowery language rather than pushing back against you to the greatest extent possible is magical thinking. You need the greater power of the government to force that change on them.
Seems like we’re stuck in a loop here then. I think you need an engaged populace first to build momentum around political and societal solutions. Which society do you think will force the government to actually solve the problem - a bunch of soft apathetic people blaming everyone else, or a society that at its core actually values sustainability and lives it on a personal level? Pretty sure you know the answer.
I actually think we broadly agree - my point is that the answer isn’t to just recycle harder at the individual level, or even to get members of your community to do the same (though it’s certainly a good thing to do) - the real change comes from the push for systemic change that’ll affect both the populace broadly, and corporations. Yes - the most effective way to do that is to build a community of people that are all pushing in the same direction - lobbying for policy/party changes in government, pushing companies to be better, etc.
Again, my views are a product of looking where the biggest contributions to the problem come from, and the changes where we can move the needle the most. A bunch of individuals changing is good, a bunch of individuals changing the government to change the whole state/country/corporate regulations is far better.
Anything but individual action is magic and flowery language. A system, a group, a corporation, an institution is made of individuals. How does ANY action start if not initiated by individuals? I will concede that cleaning up your own behavior may not move the needle much, but changing “the system” still requires individuals to take actions. What are you waiting for? Some magical hive mind to fix things?
Do you honestly think that wasn’t implied in me advocating for government action? If this is what you’re clinging to, you’re lost.
I’m lost huh? Tell me what you’ve done to help move the needle.
You’ve gone from strawmaning me to ad-hom purity testing, asking me to make non-falsifiable statements you could just dismiss as bullshit. Why be so dishonest when the fate of our civilisation is at stake? Why not acknowledge there’s a point here and take it on board instead? Make yourself more effective?
Dance with words all you want. I’m personally doing as much as I can to reduce my environmental footprint. You are just blowing hot air.
At what point did I suggest you weren’t trying? I’m pointing to the most effective, necessary course of action if things are going to meaningfully change. I’m not sure why you’re getting so defensive that you’d be so dishonest.
All I’ve done is suggest that individual action is important along with systemic change and you’ve done nothing but get on my case and label me. It’s not one or the other. This sort of binary thinking is the stupidity that is driving this world over the edge.
In any case, you claim that systemic change is the way. Please tell me how you are working on that. Let me sit down and strap in…